Not that you care all that much...

[dmc]

Exactly...

[koreshot]

Thanks for your good wishes everyone! Indeed things are starting look a little bit better this morning. The capital remains mostly untouched and Russia said they are backing down in preparetion for talks. As long as this direction continues, whatever the decision is, it should be relatively peaceful.

Their biggest condition for peace talks is that the current goverment step down. Russians have been waiting for this opportunity for years. Finally they have Georgia cornered and can possibly get away with getting rid of a pro US govt, and a president that is heavily supported (almost completely funded I dare say) by the United States. If this happens, and Russia appoints a government that suits their needs, the US loses. I think this war was more about NATO and US influence in the region than anything else.

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I feel that this thread is politics..which is off limits on this site..

[ctenidae]

There are so many tangled threads in that conflict, from the Ossetians to Abkhazia, NATO to Turkey's bid for the EU, and then throw in the Baku oil fields and Azerbijan (where Stalin got his start), pipelines (and the US interest in them), and the whole region is one big mess.

As long as Russia and Georgia are fighting, or even tense, NATO can't allow them in, and the US and other NATO countries can't really jump into the fray, since Russia could take it badly.

I don't know what the solution is, but it certainly isn't more fighting and killing. We can be sure that our presidential candidates will be milking the situation for whatever foreign policy cred they can get.

Hope your family is okay and gets through this mess, koreshot.

[BeanoNYC]

Originally Posted by koreshot

I think this war was more about NATO and US influence in the region than anything else.

As I alluded to before, this is a certainly a test for NATO. For all intents and purposes, NATO is not doing what it's supposed to do. This is clear as day to other members of NATO. This could very well be the beginning of the end for the alliance. I say this more out of fascination than anything else because I feel NATO is antiquated and I fear any military alliances.

This Georgia conflict has all the makings of WWI. It's a powder keg of ethnicity, politics, jingoism, militarism and entangling alliances.

[koreshot]

Originally Posted by dmc

There's many of us that feel this way... And i think that's what set me off...

i was defending MY people... And I;m sick of MY people having to fight others wars

Jeez folks. I am not hating on westerners! Take it easy. When I said:

Originally Posted by koreshot

The western world has had a rather underwhelming reaction to what is happening in Eastern Europe, to a country that was on the path to joining NATO. But that is only fair. There have been many other horrible conflicts where thousands died as the powerful nations stood aside and watched the killing unfold.

I meant it - the controlled political reaction is only fair. The United States can't jump head first into every conflict that breaks out - especially when it is likely that the conflict was started by their ally. We have limited resources and our soldiers die in conflicts every day. I would rather the US get involved with what is happening in Darfur, where many more people die every year.

On a related note DMC, the president of Georgia was educated and groomed for political service in the US. This party was politically and monetarily supported by the US during elections and while in office. The US supported and encouraged Georgia's bid for NATO, which everyone knew would be a slap in the face to Russia. The US supported the president when last year the Georgian people tried to rebel against him and kick him out.

This war was really a war between Russia and the US/NATO with Georgia playing the role of a proxy. The Georgian military is heavily funded by the US, Georgian troops are trained by the US, some of their weapons are manufactured by the US, the US huge military bases in Georgia, and Russia claims that they killed US soldiers on the Ossetian battle field.

So our people are already fighting that war because if Georgia retains independence our people will get cheaper oil, our people will have more political influence in the middle east and our troops will have a safe heaven in a turbulent region.

The picture is a bit more complex than you painted.

I know that politics are not allowed, I never meant for my thread to be politics. Sorry Greg. I am not making another comment on this topic. Thank you everyone for your best wishes!

[ctenidae]

I don't think this discussion has gotten political, or is by nature political. It's historical, current events, and of national and international concern. As long as it doesn't devolve into an Obama/McCain slugfest, I personally don't see a reason to lock. But that's just me.

It is interesting that the setup here is very similar to Vietnam, Korea, and Cuba, with Georgia in the middle between the US and Russia. The circumstances of today are different, though, and that reality changes the moves both sides can make. Plus, Russia and the US are both more directly involved than before. We need Georgia independent for access to Caspian Sea oil and as a base of operations in the Middle East. Russia needs Georgia back in the fold to save face. Unfortunately, reason and logic lead to decisions, emotion leads to action.

Someone needs to craft a solution that gives everyone what they wnat and need. Maybe let Ossetia re-unite as a Kremlin-controlled "independent" country, and keep Georgia under the US sphere of influence. Of course, no one knows (or is asking) what the Ossetians want, other than to not be bombed anymore.

[koreshot]

In the spirit of no more politics. A little trivia, Gori, the strategic city in Georgia that Russia captured was the birth place of Stalin. Even though he is far from a national hero in Georgia, they still respect him as a man that shaped history and keep some stuff around.

Stalin's birth place... comes from a very poor family:


Here is the train car that he traveled in when visiting his mother. She would not move to Moscow with him and remained in Gori.


My parents have a friend who is in charge of the Stalin stuff. When visiting from the US a few years ago, we were able to gain access into the car, even had lunch sitting on Stalin's personal couch and then just for giggles took a picutre of me sitting on his personal toilet.

Ah memories...

[ski_resort_observer]

Originally Posted by dmc

First of all - thanks for giving all of us Americans the benfit of the doubt.... NOT!!!!!
I think we Americans are a caring people... Wait... your one of us right?


I love how our "president" says it's bad that Russia invaded a sovereign country... Like he's never done that.

Yeah it sucks - but don't generalize... There are many of us "westerners" that care.. So back off a bit on your diatribe.... I don't lump all Georgians into a category - I'd thank you to do the same to us in the US.....

But what are we supposed to do? I don't even 100% know who attacked who.. For all i know this could be Georgia's doing...

And frankly - I don't want us to go to war for other countries problems anymore...
And I don't want "MY PEOPLE" to die for "your people". So I'd prefer we stay way out of it... Sorry...

Enough is enough...

If your really upset.. Book a ticket.. and buy a gun... defend your country..
Dont just try to come of as a person who thinks people do not care...

there... I said.. it...

Good point...your saying things many think about but don't have the balls to post it.

Personally, I would support helping Georgia much more than Iraq.

[thetrailboss]

First, my heart goes out to your family and friends in Georgia, Koreshot. I think that this is a terrible situation.

But I am noticing that some comments in here are turning a bit political, so I am going to ask that we try to avoid commenting on politics or political views. That may sound impossible, but I figured I would suggest it....and we'd see how the conversation goes.