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Killington/POWDR - how much does bad PR cost them per year in lost revenue?

Highway Star

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I'm pretty sure that there is not an existing thread on this.

Obviously there is a certain segment of the skiing population that likes to complain about how Killington is run. Over the past 5 years of ownership and management by POWDR Corp of Park City UT (also owners of Park City Mt Resort), there has been a firestorm of negative feedback in response to:

- Pass price increases
- Shortening of the ski season
- Cancelling of bond/lifetime passes
- Laying off longtime employees
- Destroying/Cancelling BMMC (Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge)
- Reduced Snowmaking
- Reduced lift operations
- Removing the Devil's Fiddle Quad and South Ridge triple, not replacing them
- Closing Pico midweek
- Excessively catering to special events at the expense of normal skiers
- ETC.

In response to this, there has been a varying intensity of criticism from their customers in the form of:

- Word of mouth in the community
- Word of mouth from regular skiers to flatlanders
- Negative "vibe" on the mountain
- Posters
- T-Shirts
- Newspaper articles
- Online article comments
- Facebook postings/comments
- Forum postings
- Blog postings/comments
- Emails
- Other

It is clear from various sources (newspaper articles, traffic counter data, observed levels of business) that Killington went from an average 950k+ skier visits in the last 5 years of ASC management, to an estimated average of 700k over the last 5 years. Just slightly more than Okemo. Granted, their yield per visit (say, from $73 up to $95?) may have increased substantially, meaning that revenue may have gone up or down. Operating costs seem to be down, as indicated by reduction in services, thus they may in fact be more profitable.

Regardless, would anyone care to quantify how much bad PR costs them per year? Threecy?
 
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boston_e

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I would say that I have been critical of Killington when I felt justified but also praise them when I felt it was deserved.

I do know that Killington used to get 100% of my allotted skiing dollars and that is no longer the case.

Things I was critical of include the now 8:30 start time, initial pricing on kids programs and not at least trying to make it through the 2nd full weekend in May.

I gave them props for things like eliminating the "bronze type" season passes, coming out with the express card, installing the new quad.
 

riverc0il

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I'd be willing to bet that their revenue per skier visit is likely up. Total revenue is likely down this season due to the poor season, warm temperatures, and general lack of natural snow. I bet in an average snow year, revenues will be excellent for Killington. They are making sound business decisions and their hardcore customers won't leave them because they have second home investments. They'll attract new hardcore customers that will never have known the "good ole days" and that appreciate the less crowded slopes due to business decisions that have alienated a few and price/pass increases that drove down crowding.
 

Highway Star

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I would say that I have been critical of Killington when I felt justified but also praise them when I felt it was deserved.

I do know that Killington used to get 100% of my allotted skiing dollars and that is no longer the case.

Things I was critical of include the now 8:30 start time, initial pricing on kids programs and not at least trying to make it through the 2nd full weekend in May.

I gave them props for things like eliminating the "bronze type" season passes, coming out with the express card, installing the new quad.

There have been a few good things done, the primary one is the Peak Walkway (a K-zone idea), and making snow on/cutting back the brush on Devils Fiddle and Ovation (also asked for repeatedly).

The umbrella bars are nice too, but they certainly didn't go to any extraordinary efforts to save the superstar pub, if you know what I mean.
 

rocojerry

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- Closing Pico midweek

This has been a +1 in my mind for Pico. If I can't get away from work mid-week, knowing theres a better chance of fresh tracks somewhere not earned puts it on my radar.

I'd say i'm in general in the anti-Killington, pro-Pico camp -- a minority, but thats the way I like it :) more for me.
 

WWF-VT

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I spent $39 for tickets and about 10 bucks for lunch in to ski in October so Highway Star's constant bitching about the place isn't entirely a loss for K.
 

skiingsnow

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I'm pretty sure that there is not an existing thread on this.

Obviously there is a certain segment of the skiing population that likes to complain about how Killington is run. Over the past 5 years of ownership and management by POWDR Corp of Park City UT (also owners of Park City Mt Resort), there has been a firestorm of negative feedback in response to:

- Pass price increases - They were only increased back into the ballpark of where they were before the all for one passes, with the addition of the blackout pass which K never had back in the day, and also under the first year of powdr a midweek pass that was only $299.
- Shortening of the ski season - May be shorter than it had been many years, but is the same as the past few years of asc, and they have consistantly offered up the most ski days per season in the east year after year.
- Cancelling of bond/lifetime passes - They expired. Asc included that the actual liftetime passes be honered in the sale, they did not do so for bond passes.
- Laying off longtime employees
- Destroying/Cancelling BMMC (Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge)
- Reduced Snowmaking - Umm no. Killington under powdr has made much more snow than the last several years of asc and it wasn't long before that they didn't even have much access to water so I would say Killington probably makes more snow now than they ever have in Killington's history. They have almost always made snow on Conclusion, Ovation t2b, Vertigo, Upper Dream Maker, and Devils Fiddle. That was not the norm prior to powdr. Yes they did not get to a lot of these and more this year, but that was due to the extensive amounts of snow they blew in October and November and even into December that kept melting out and having to be redone. Dew Tour has been around for years and before that it was the Grand Prix for years, these events had little to do with less snow being blown elsewhere.
- Reduced lift operations - It isn't much but they have run all the same lifts that asc ran weekdays with the Canyon Quad on certain days along with the addition of the Northbrook Quad. On weekends powdr ran SRT more often than asc had, Devils Fiddle sat idle for many seasons and asc finally at the end of their days ran it more due to excessive crowds at Bear base.
- Removing the Devil's Fiddle Quad and South Ridge triple, not replacing them Again Devils Fiddle Quad was barely ever used by asc in their last several years and with the new express quad it really isn't needed. SRT was an old lift and they certainly didn't remove it for their health, and they have repeatedly said it will be replaced. Good things take time.
- Closing Pico midweek - Pico is only closed 2 days per week and went from a failing operation to a profitable operation under powdr with millions of dollars in improvements as well.
- Excessively catering to special events at the expense of normal skiers
- ETC.

Just throwing my opinions out there. . .
 
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abc

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This has been a +1 in my mind for Pico. If I can't get away from work mid-week, knowing theres a better chance of fresh tracks somewhere not earned puts it on my radar.

I'd say i'm in general in the anti-Killington, pro-Pico camp -- a minority, but thats the way I like it :) more for me.
I miss skiing Pico mid-week. But I'm not complaining. I ski mostly weekend anyway. Only very occasionally take a day off if powder is anticipated. So yes, with it close during the week, I'll have to fight the weekend crowd, but really that's not so big of a crowd anyway. So it's no big lost to me.

I think it makes perfect business sense. Mid-week in K isn't quite as busy as weekends so can absorb the number. Weekend is when skier visit is up. That makes Pico more profitable == stay in business. Still, it's not too crowded even on weekends so it's my go-to place when I want to ski mid-VT (instead of K on weekend).
 

Glenn

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Bandwidth cost on this site for Killington threads.....I'd say that's another $5.08.
 
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