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Wind farms

Puck it

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A European company I think Danish has proposed putting a wind farm south Martha's Vineyard farther out to sea than the failed Cape Wind project. The cost of power for these offshore turbine is quite a bit higher than on land turbines. It baffles me at times.
 

drjeff

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I've never once thought that wind or solar were on par with other means of power generation both in terms of cost per kw hour to generate and also typically with the size of the footprint needed to scale these types of facilities up to anywhere near the size they'd have to be to generate what a typical oil/gas/coal fired plant generates, let alone what a nuclear plant generate.

What gets me, bar none, is when the environmental lobby does what it can to shut down/prevent development of a coal/oil/gas powered power generation facility because of environmental concerns and then will often follow up with a NIMBY line of attack to prevent what they claim is a better power generation alternative (usually wind or solar), let alone the claims that they (the environmental lobby) often makes that wind or solar is close to as cost effective to generate or produce as oil/gas/coal. It can't be both ways with current capabilities!!

Heck I have a microcosm of this basic scenario literally playing out right now less than a 1/2 mile from where I'm typing this at my office. A developer who is refurbishing an old textile mile wants to put in a small hydro electric power generation facility using modifications to an existing old sluiceway that is in the textile mill. People were saying that it would be a clean, efficient way to generate power (which hydro sure can be), now some of these same people who were for the hydro plant have found out that in times of lower water flow, along the damn floodgate controlled section of the river near my office, that there will be some limited times that the water flow through the new hydro plant will prevent water from flowing over the adjacent scenic water fall that is one of the most recognized landmarks in the center of the old mill town my office is located in. Suddenly there are lots of people who were for this project a week ago that are now against once the report of times with no water going over the waterfall came out this past Tuesday!!!

There are pros and cons to pretty much everything!! Some people sure don't seem to get that!!
 

prsboogie

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Thanks for sharing, admittedly this is a long post an very fact filled. I personally think everyone can do more to reduce our dependency on fossils but think we really should be using more nuclear and better burning fossil plants in addition to renewables. But there is a huge push from our government and environmentalists for wind and solar advancement at the cost of those who don't have the political voice to oppose it. Thus the term NIMBY - not in my back yard, But in the back yards of those who can't say no.
 

Hawkshot99

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Uphillklmber, as a self described tree hugger I greatly commend you on that post.

I am one of the people who is typicaly acused of wanting to "destroy the planet" and such by enviromentalists for being against most forms of "green" energy. But the truth is that I and most people who are against "green energy" are all for true green energy. The problem is basically exactly what you posted. "Green energy" is not that green.
-Huge pieces of land must be cleared to install the systems.
-They do not produce as much power as other options.
-They are not as dependable as other options.
-They do not last as long as other options.

I have spoken to many people who have installed solar systemsnon their homes. None of them would have done it with out tax credits from the government to help cover the cost. What does that tell you about the true efficiency of it? Its just not worth it, unless you can get others to pay for it.

I am all for making the world a better and cleaner place for me, and future generations. I just want it to be truly better, not just "warm and fuzzy fealings" better because we can say we put up a windmill, but that turned out to just cost a ton of $ and not really do anything....
 

Funky_Catskills

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I want to convert to solar - I can get assistance - mainly because the power goes out here and it pisses me off.. :)
But also I'd like to become self powered at my house.

I've been to Germany a lot.. Seems like every house has solar systems..
And anyone I work with there likes it enough. They can work out of their houses and stuff with no problem..

I have a buddy thats doing huge solar implementations all over the country..
He's stoked..
 

prsboogie

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The only way I'd go solar is if there was no cost to me, lease with a reduction in my electric bill and no out of pocket expenses .

Once they find an affordable way of storing the electric produced for night use that is efficient that will be a different story
 

steamboat1

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A European company I think Danish has proposed putting a wind farm south Martha's Vineyard farther out to sea than the failed Cape Wind project. The cost of power for these offshore turbine is quite a bit higher than on land turbines. It baffles me at times.
Actually it's just 3 miles SE of Block Island. Construction began in July. They hope to have it online by the end of 2016.

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steamboat1

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And who's paying for it? Why the good people of RI.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/08/18/rhode-island-wind-farm-opponents-head-to-court.htm

Rhode Island Wind Farm Opponents Head to Court


By MARIMER MATOS
ShareThis


PROVIDENCE (CN) - The first off-shore wind farm in the United States will have Rhode Islanders footing the bill at $497 million above market cost, taxpayers claim in Federal Court.
The Aug. 14 lawsuit comes less than a month after Deepwater Wind touted the installation of its first foundation component for the Block Island Wind Farm.
With construction "now imminent," plaintiffs Benjamin Riggs and Laurence Ehrhardt say a federal judge must enjoin Deepwater's power-purchase agreement with Narragansett Electric Co., more commonly known as National Grid.
The agreement, which the Rhode Island Public Utilities Commission approved on Aug. 16, 2010, requires electricity consumers to front the cost National Grid's purchase by paying 3.5 percent more per year for electricity for up to 20 years, according to the complaint.
Riggs and Ehrhardt filed the complaint along with the Rhode Island Manufacturers Association, a trade group that lobbies to keep costs down for local businesses.
Claiming that the deal advances "parochial state polices and undermine federal policies," the 27-page complaint says that the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission has "exclusive jurisdiction to regulate wholesale electricity transactions in interstate commerce."
The wind farm's opponents say that the illegal power-purchase agreement "allows Deepwater Wind to receive a fixed price for the energy, regardless of the prices established in the FERC-approved wholesale markets."
Ultimately, the agreement "contravenes and stands as an obstacle to FERC's regulatory policy choices," the complaint states.
William Harsch, an attorney for the plaintiffs based in a Warwick, R.I., has not returned a request for comment.
 

Not Sure

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Wind Farms to me don't seem all that ugly , although I would not want to be home or (Down wind ) not long after an ice storm .

Tax Credits are expiring 2016, well see what happens with the double edge sword of cheap Natural Gas. It's going to make Solar a tuff sell.
Local permitting is getting more expensive with Municipalities requiring engineering reports on roof structures, adding more to the cost.

Not sure up North how difficult it is to keep the snow off Solar PV systems ? The evacuated tube systems (hydronic)do a good job of shedding snow . They are also very expensive and most are made in China

If you don't have access to Natural gas Geo systems are next best thing but the cost makes it prohibitive payback is long ,even longer now given alternatives. If your planning to stay in a home for a long time its worth it or have a pond or spring , wells are a huge part of installation cost. Had a customer wanted a Geo 3yrs ago but he lived in a "Water Shed Aquafer Area" The permit application and restrictions made it clear they didn't want Geo's in that area. The engineer who wrote the guidelines was not up to speed on system design ...very frustrating . There are different types of antifreeze used and they had issues with Methanol vs Glycol . Glycol being less efficient but would remain in the ground and not evaporate like Methanol in weak concentration that would not pose a health hazard.
Ended up installing a Heat pump system.

Lots of choices and most depend on circumstances . But if you looking for clean Natural gas I think is the way to go. Made in USA!
 

mbedle

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Interesting you mention heat pumps - with the new variable speed compressors, they are becoming very efficient and close to what geothermal is at.
 

dlague

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I was curious about how wind turbines are viewed. So I googled it! Actually I used bing but binged does not work. I was surprised about environmentalists being against wind energy. Some of the issues they mentioned were view-shed, bat/bird kills, noise or health issues and with the poor performance and high cost of industrial wind and the fact that it could never replace current fossil fuel generators, they feel like the value is not there.

The fact is wind is not a constant, sun is not a constant, however, fossil fuel, nuclear, and hydro generators are so they are not going away anytime soon. With all of the wind and solar power capacity in the US no fossil fuel generators has been shut down. I work for an electric distributor and we attempted to build a 6 acre community solar farm and the cost of doing so was crazy. Basically, members would prepay a 20 yr lease for a "Panel" (not really) and they would get a KWH or $ credit on their bill. The problem, pay back was going to be about 16 years. Nights and cloudy days, it did little to nothing. Also, people did not want to see the solar farm so we were going to build it over a swamp in the woods. In the end, there was not enough buy in and the project was canceled.

In New England they are always trying to find ways to lower the cost of power generation either through Northern Pass for cheap Hydro Power or building natural gas lines into southern NH and northern MA. Both are heavily opposed. Then again many are opposed to wind turbines as well and they also do not want to see solar fields. What are we to do?

Interesting facts - you can see we barely put a dent in the total electricity consumption in the US but the government spent over 10 billion in subsidies.

In the twelve months through August 2015, utility scale solar power generated 24.6 terawatt-hours (TWh), 0.60% of total U.S. electricity. In fiscal year 2013, federal supports and subsidies for solar power amounted to $4.393 billion, over 27% of all federal supports and subsidies for electricity production. This figure does not include state and local spending.

For calendar year 2014, the electricity produced from wind power in the United States amounted to 181.79 terawatt-hours, or 4.44% of all generated electrical energy. For fiscal year 2013, wind power in the United States received $5.936 billion in federal subsidies and supports, or 37% of all subsidies and supports for electricity production. This figure does not include state and local spending.
 
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Not Sure

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Interesting you mention heat pumps - with the new variable speed compressors, they are becoming very efficient and close to what geothermal is at.

Efficiencies are great even at low ambient temps but capacity loss is where they need backup help.
The multi zone minisplit units are awsome . Conventional heart pumps unless zoned (expensive) heat and cool whole house and loose some efficiency moving air. You can mix and match small ducted or wall units and just contol the space your in .

I like to think of it as recycling everyone elses waste heat .
 

Hawkshot99

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Efficiencies are great even at low ambient temps but capacity loss is where they need backup help.
The multi zone minisplit units are awsome . Conventional heart pumps unless zoned (expensive) heat and cool whole house and loose some efficiency moving air. You can mix and match small ducted or wall units and just contol the space your in .

I like to think of it as recycling everyone elses waste heat .

My friend removed his iil furnace and installed a heat pump to heat and cool his house a few years ago. It works great as long as the temps stay above 20. Below that, and it will not heat the house above 50 or so. He mainly uses his pellet stove for heat now, othrrwise he freezes. His is a multizone system I think Fujitsu brand.
 

Funky_Catskills

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I would do part I guess if I was building new or they ( the solar companies ) could eliminate my electric bill completely, that would be different.

Based upon my exposure to the sun - I could cover my entire electric cost and send some to the grid..
 
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