Park City/Talisker-Vail Lawsuit

drjeff said:

I'm guessing that right about now if Cumming and Powdr really still want to run PCMR that the original lease offer that Talisker made (I believe it was for between 3.5-4 million a year) is looking mighty fine as it seems like they WAY overplayed their hand and are now even taking a "beating" in the court of public opinion far more than before as Katz and Vail Resorts have put forth a very sound media campaign that dispels much of the now seemingly hyperbole that Powdr put out there as it has been going down the last few years!

Powdr and Cumming are likely to end up as the subject of a case study in the Harvard Business Review someday over this and it won't be portraying them in a way that any businessman or company wants to be portrayed in that or any business journal!!

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Why do you think that popular opinion is against POWDR? Maybe from the long view, but in PC the locals DESPISE Talisker. You'd think that it was owned by Satan or something.

Honestly if you ran the hypo by someone here, dropped the names, dropped that they are ski areas, and just said, "they have a commercial lease, one party did not renew as the lease says, the landlord let them stay for a few months and now wants them out," most folks would probably agree with Talisker's position (I'm leaving out a lot of the details of course....).

I am just surprised to hear PCMR now pretty much admitting that they screwed up, offering a buttload of money for the land and/or a new lease. Mind you that PCMR wanted to continue their lease at $100k annually or something like that...not near the $3-4 mill that they are offering. It seems like desperation....

It seems more and more like Vail is going to expand their terrain very soon.

And I agree that this is something that is downright embarrassing for POWDR. No matter how they spin it they did not adequately protect themselves. How the PCMR management held their jobs is beyond me.

The other part that was kind of odd (and pathetic) was how Cummings waxed on about how they are the town hill and how glad they were that they could "help the kids" for so many years. Jeesum Crow you'd think they were the YMCA or Cochran's fighting with Uncle Scrooge or something. PCMR is a business...and one of the most recognizable and largest ski areas in Utah. It is a FOR-PROFIT entity...not a charity. That just reinforced the image that he was a rich guy who wanted to run a ski area for the hell of it instead of making it a sustainable business. Maybe I'm being harsh, but it's just how I see it...with my (albeit) legally educated glasses on.

And with the (likely) appeals after a decision, this could drag on for another ski season or so.........

Do any of you know if the cost of litigation is being skimmed off resources from Killington? I apologize if the answer was covered earlier in what has become a very long and unwieldy thread.

joshua segal said:

Do any of you know if the cost of litigation is being skimmed off resources from Killington?

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That's a rather myopic view of the world, dontcha think?

joshua segal said:

Do any of you know if the cost of litigation is being skimmed off resources from Killington? I apologize if the answer was covered earlier in what has become a very long and unwieldy thread.

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Given that they are now well behind on their planned capital outlays, and the premature cutoff on snowmaking this year, I'd say it is definitely the case. Killington has had a couple good profitable years lately. I'd say they are holding as much cash as possible to fight the case, cover any lease or purchase possibility, or the camp woodward option.

Powdr is replacing a chair out in Vegas this summer. We'll see about Bachelor. New trails are already cut and all the permits are in place. So if the new chair doesn't happen this summer it MIGHT be an indicator that they're saving money for the big lawsuit. Another thought is they could holding off on building new chairs just in case they some how have to and are allowed to remove the Park City lifts. I imagine they would be worth more to themselves than they would on the open market. I'd be shocked if it ever came to that.

First Tracks said:

That's a rather myopic view of the world, dontcha think?

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*flips open dictionary*

myopic[ mahy-op-ik, -oh-pik ]
adjective
1. pertaining to or having myopia; nearsighted.
2. unable or unwilling to act prudently; shortsighted.
3. lacking tolerance or understanding; narrow-minded.

skiNEwhere said:

*flips open dictionary*

myopic[ mahy-op-ik, -oh-pik ]
adjective
1. pertaining to or having myopia; nearsighted.
2. unable or unwilling to act prudently; shortsighted.
3. lacking tolerance or understanding; narrow-minded.

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:smile:


I didn't get that either. I was going to ask but thought "screw it".

skiNEwhere said:

*flips open dictionary*

myopic[ mahy-op-ik, -oh-pik ]
adjective
1. pertaining to or having myopia; nearsighted.
2. unable or unwilling to act prudently; shortsighted.
3. lacking tolerance or understanding; narrow-minded.

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Yeah, that's probably why Joshua has been hanging around Snowjournal for the last 15 years rather than AZ. People are less likely to insult you for asking a perfectly legitimate question.

No doubt it is coming from POWDR and from funds that would be doing other things.

I skied there today for the first time. Much bigger and better than expected. Had character and tons of terrain.

thetrailboss said:

No doubt it is coming from POWDR and from funds that would be doing other things.

I skied there today for the first time. Much bigger and better than expected. Had character and tons of terrain.

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One of my GOOD Mount Snow friends is out in PC right now, I know he skied PCMR today, and his "tour guide" was PCMR's director of marketing (he held that job at Mount Snow the previous 2 seasons and a bunch of us Mount Snow regulars became good friends with him)

I'll be curious to hear his take on things when he comes back East and I play golf with him in the next few weeks!

drjeff said:

One of my GOOD Mount Snow friends is out in PC right now, I know he skied PCMR today, and his "tour guide" was PCMR's director of marketing (he held that job at Mount Snow the previous 2 seasons and a bunch of us Mount Snow regulars became good friends with him)

I'll be curious to hear his take on things when he comes back East and I play golf with him in the next few weeks!

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So I can write more about my visit now. PCMR is DEFINITELY the "town hill". Everyone I ran into yesterday were locals. But that is largely a function of the fact that it was the last weekend of the season. The negatives were, in hindsight, similar to what folks complained of with Killington....stingy management, "nickle and diming" things (passholders have to PAY for prime parking, pay for other things such as early skiing, etc), and not paying staff well. One guy told me that he hoped that Vail took over because POWDR just did not run things well. In terms of employees I met the wide majority were very, very nice. The positives: POWDR understood that when it took over from Bandami how important the community was and certain aspects of the operation. Particularly racing, the volunteer program (free pass in exchange for volunteers from town is important for lots of locals who can't afford expensive passes), and big events that may break even (ski races, park events, etc). The parks were the best I have seen. More than one local told me that they feared that the volunteer program would die under Vail or that Senior passes would not be available. One couple told me that they like Canyons but have always hated the management. That is understandable.

So mixed reactions...nervousness for sure...but confidence that the skiing will continue under someone.

Some aspects of PCMR were awesome (nice six packs, a nice base area village, good grooming, good snowmaking, interesting lift layout that worked pretty well, copious amounts of terrain, good historical preservation, good parking, nice mountain lodges). But other things were really (obviously) lacking and on shoestring budget (lots of terrain that could be open closed, very old lifts in certain areas, shopworn facilities up on the mountain, etc). I'd say it is better cared for than Canyons, not as nice facility-wise as Deer Valley, but better terrain variety and steeper terrain overall.

Utah Court hands Park City to Vail Resorts

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_25808742/utah-court-hands-park-city-mountain-resort-over

A Utah District Court ruled Wednesday that Park City Mountain Resort managers failed to renew their historic lease for a majority of their ski terrain and the landowner is allowed to deliver the ski area to a new operator.That means Vail Resorts just won the right to operate Utah's most popular ski area. And it means that Park City Mountain Resort — or PCMR — owner Powdr Corp. will go down in history as captaining the ski industry's most costly clerical error ever: a days-late filing to renew their decades-old, sweetheart lease cost them their flagship ski area into which the resort operator had invested more than $100 million.


Read more: Utah court hands Park City Mountain Resort over to Vail after 3-year fight - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/business/...-park-city-mountain-resort-over#ixzz32O3oxHFn
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse
Follow us: @Denverpost on Twitter | Denverpost on Facebook

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Let me know if this is a repost!

Maybe TB can fill in, but does Vail really get to keep all the infastructure PCMR paid for? Do they assume the debt payments as a result (if any)? I can understand losing the lease, but the strong arm play for all the lifts and infastructure seems like legal stealing to me.

Park City Record article

Just heard. Appeal likely. Will fill in a bit later.


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I'm guessing the "how to completely screw up a honey of a business deal" article about Powdr comes out in the Harvard Business Journal before any appeal is heard! And with this, John Cumming may very well have put some serious distance between himself and Les Otten in the "how not to run a major ski corporation" hall of fame!

AdironRider said:

Maybe TB can fill in, but does Vail really get to keep all the infastructure PCMR paid for? Do they assume the debt payments as a result (if any)? I can understand losing the lease, but the strong arm play for all the lifts and infastructure seems like legal stealing to me.

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I don't think anybody know yet, the lawyers will fight it out. We should start a poll.

1. Vail get everything basically free
2. Vail pays fair market value
3. PCMR removes lift that have value
4. PCMR wins appeal and keeps em
etc.

One thing quote that keeps annoying me is that PCMR is willing to pay "above market value" for the terrain. That kinda contradicts itself. What ever the high number Vail is willing to reject for it is the market value.

This older article has a map so you can get an idea of where the boundry line is....

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-06/park-city-vail-resorts-powdr-fight-over-ski-mountains-future

Looks like the town lift is not on the main parcel, but they may own a that piece of land in town. Another thing to consider is potential lawsuits from effected 3rd parties, like folks who purchased PCMR developed condos.

Once the dust settles, I think the question becomes: Is Copper, Mt. Bachelor or the mighty, beastly Killington Powdr's premier resort?