Act 250: SP Land files Killington ski village

deadheadskier said:

Unless the terrain development between Ramshead and Pico is very compelling, I somewhat see the interconnect being underutilized by most just like Slidebrook is at Sugarbush. If it does happen and I'm right, where they close the interconnect midweek, holy hell are internet message boards going to light up with even more fail threads. :lol:

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my initial comment regarding terrain development between the two areas

Tin Woodsman said:

Wait you mean except for the part where Slidebrook has no lift access actually in the interconnect area while the K-Pico would have at least 2-3 lifts? Not sure why you're comparing one to the other - they have very little in common other than the prospect of physically connecting tow separate mountains owned by the same company.

The interconnect terrain offers the prospect of dramatically increasing the core blue cruising terrain that K sorely lacks at present.

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You are absolutely correct that K needs more core blue cruising terrain, I just question if the interconnect terrain is what's going to offer it. If it does, will that terrain increase skier visits enough to warrant taking on the added expense of managing 2-3 lifts and a few hundred acres more terrain 7 days a week? It really needs to be a MAJOR hit because Killington already closes Pico Midweek as is. So a full fledged interconnect would result in operating not only the 2-3 lift interconnecting terrain pod previously proposed, but also another 3-4 lifts at Pico and that base area midweek. Is the terrain that good to open it AND Pico 7 days a week?

If it's not, then I can completely see Killington shutting the interconnect trail pods down along with Pico midweek, much like Sugarbush shuts down Slidebrook because most midweek skiers really don't utilize the option of skiing two distant mountain areas at Sugarbush and I think the same would be true at Killington. This idea is where my comparison with Slidebrook comes from.

If it is the really great blue cruiser terrain Killington currently lacks, will that additional terrain increase skier visits enough to not affect other current trail pods on the mountain? Let's not forget, there's been at least 97 threads this winter regarding K not operating the Canyon or Glades Triple midweek this season and numerous trails such as Double Dipper and Downdraft not receiving snowmaking. Is the interconnect potentially worth current lifts/trail pods being shuttered midweek along with even more main mountain trails not seeing snowmaking?

If I were pulling the purse strings, I'd kick the tires on building that interconnect before going through with the 2-3 pod and having to open Pico up 7 days a week. I'd build an interconnect lift like Slidebrook, but high along the ridge. I'd glade everything from the peak of Ramshead down to the current Pico to K interconnect trail and market the hell out of the new glades knowing they can open even if it still makes financial sense to close Pico and the Interconnect lift midweek.

I guess I just question the potential economic return of the interconnect and if it will bring in enough new business without potentially seeing the rest of the mount run on a more austere budget than they currently do according to so many current upset long time K customers.

skiersleft said:

Mainly families who would now prefer Killington over Okemo, Sugarbush and Stratton.

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The millionaire family that can afford slopeside lodging is going to watch their children get run down like dogs and buy elsewhere. Killington doesn't have enough blue square terrain to be a viable intermediate family area. I don't care what they build, they can't compete against the Okemo and Stratton slopeside resale market for the average super-affluent family.

Geoff said:

The millionaire family that can afford slopeside lodging is going to watch their children get run down like dogs and buy elsewhere. Killington doesn't have enough blue square terrain to be a viable intermediate family area. I don't care what they build, they can't compete against the Okemo and Stratton slopeside resale market for the average super-affluent family.

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Killington has solid beginner terrain, so the children will be fine skiing Snowshed and then Ramshead. Intermediate terrain? Yes, there are better options out there. But I think you mistakenly think that the people who are going to buy an expensive ski home are intermediate skiers. If you're crazy enough to want to buy slopeside, it's very likely you can ski advanced terrain at Killington. And your kids will learn to ski it with you.

But I won't convince you. What matters is that a company already dished out a lot of money with the belief that the village will be profitable. They put their money where their mouth is. We shall see who is right in the coming years. For now, it's a futile exercise. Amusement during this dismal ski season.

skiersleft said:

But I won't convince you. What matters is that a company already dished out a lot of money with the belief that the village will be profitable. They put their money where their mouth is. We shall see who is right in the coming years. For now, it's a futile exercise. Amusement during this dismal ski season.

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Eiger basically stole the land when ASC defaulted on a $20 million note. E2M Partners has absolutely no history doing resort development. Eiger fund made their money loaning money at high interest rates to distressed companies where the loan was backed by good real estate collateral. Eiger though they'd unloaded the real estate on Centex 5 years ago and it got as far as the Eiger web site. Centex did due diligence and bailed on the deal. E2M is merely going through the motions with the Act 250 permitting to put lipstick on the pig in hopes of selling it. I give it 0% chance that they will ever build a base village. I figure they'll just chop it up and sell it as house lots now that they've owned it long enough to be exempt from the Vermont anti-subdivision tax.

Geoff said:

Eiger basically stole the land when ASC defaulted on a $20 million note. E2M Partners has absolutely no history doing resort development. Eiger fund made their money loaning money at high interest rates to distressed companies where the loan was backed by good real estate collateral. Eiger though they'd unloaded the real estate on Centex 5 years ago and it got as far as the Eiger web site. Centex did due diligence and bailed on the deal. E2M is merely going through the motions with the Act 250 permitting to put lipstick on the pig in hopes of selling it. I give it 0% chance that they will ever build a base village. I figure they'll just chop it up and sell it as house lots now that they've owned it long enough to be exempt from the Vermont anti-subdivision tax.

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We shall see. Hope you're wrong.

I'm a little more optimistic than Geoff, I'll give it a 5% chance that the village will be built! :lol:

Yawn............:roll:

Double Yawn... :roll:

Meanwhile...despite bitching in pages and pages in multiple threads, The BEAST is one of the last 2 standing in this dismal season.

As for the Village....I think I'm somewhere between Geoff and RENO in my odds of a base village ever coming to fruition.

Geoff said:

Eiger basically stole the land when ASC defaulted on a $20 million note. E2M Partners has absolutely no history doing resort development. Eiger fund made their money loaning money at high interest rates to distressed companies where the loan was backed by good real estate collateral. Eiger though they'd unloaded the real estate on Centex 5 years ago and it got as far as the Eiger web site. Centex did due diligence and bailed on the deal. E2M is merely going through the motions with the Act 250 permitting to put lipstick on the pig in hopes of selling it. I give it 0% chance that they will ever build a base village. I figure they'll just chop it up and sell it as house lots now that they've owned it long enough to be exempt from the Vermont anti-subdivision tax.

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Geoff is right. 0% with the current status quo. Killington continues to be in a downward spiral with a management that fails to get it. There is a reason they have lost half their annual skier visits since the peak in the 90's (1.4M vs. 700k). That means there is a ton of cheap housing stock available in the area putting downward pressure on anything being built. There is just no real demand in the killington micro market.

The only way the village will ever be built or if the land will be sold at a profit is if the ski area is run on more than an austerity operations strategy, escape some of the constant bad vibe/negtive publicity, and actaully grow skier visits. POWDR would have to sell out for that to happen.

marcski said:

Meanwhile...despite bitching in pages and pages in multiple threads, The BEAST is one of the last 2 standing in this dismal season.

As for the Village....I think I'm somewhere between Geoff and RENO in my odds of a base village ever coming to fruition.

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Superstar is clad in titanium.

marcski said:

Meanwhile...despite bitching in pages and pages in multiple threads, The BEAST is one of the last 2 standing in this dismal season.

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But no matter what Killington does, Geoff and HS will be there dutifully to remind us how much more they COULD have done.

As for the Village....I think I'm somewhere between Geoff and RENO in my odds of a base village ever coming to fruition.

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I'm far above both of them. Filing a 250 Act application isn't free. There's a filing fee plus whatever you paid the lawyers, architects, and engineers who created all the paperwork. Nobody would go through all that effort for something they did not intend, or at least strongly wish, to build.

I actually wouldn't mind if they built Phase I of the village. It would be easy walking distance from my condo.

What other ski resorts compete nowadays? Especially for families that have non-skiers, it's tough to go away. Other than North Conway, what else really has a lot of options for winter?

*not including the standard tubing, zip lines, etc. And Jay's water park probably counts.

I would say that Stowe has plenty of options for non-skiers. There's lots of shopping, many spas in towns, Ben & Jerry's factory up the road etc.

Stratton does pretty well being so close to Manchester and the off hill activities that town has to offer.

oakapple said:

But no matter what Killington does, Geoff and HS will be there dutifully to remind us how much more they COULD have done.


I'm far above both of them. Filing a 250 Act application isn't free. There's a filing fee plus whatever you paid the lawyers, architects, and engineers who created all the paperwork. Nobody would go through all that effort for something they did not intend, or at least strongly wish, to build.

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What would you guess the expense to date is as a ratio of the value of the land (both imagined by SP Land and real)?

Because I'm thinking it's in the sub .003 department.

Divide the filing fee (150,000) into the value of the completed (Phase 1) development, as announced (133MM) That's .0011. Get the picture? This is not a lot of money. This does not necessarily indicate desire to build anytime soon. It will however make the property more saleable to someone who thinks SP's vision is a good one.

marcski said:

Meanwhile...despite bitching in pages and pages in multiple threads, The BEAST is one of the last 2 standing in this dismal season.

As for the Village....I think I'm somewhere between Geoff and RENO in my odds of a base village ever coming to fruition.

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What country is Maine in? Or is this a total arithmetic fail?

deadheadskier said:

I would say that Stowe has plenty of options for non-skiers. There's lots of shopping, many spas in towns, Ben & Jerry's factory up the road etc.

Stratton does pretty well being so close to Manchester and the off hill activities that town has to offer.

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whiteface as well, plenty to do it lake placid.

mister moose said:

What would you guess the expense to date is as a ratio of the value of the land (both imagined by SP Land and real)?

Because I'm thinking it's in the sub .003 department.

Divide the filing fee (150,000) into the value of the completed (Phase 1) development, as announced (133MM) That's .0011. Get the picture? This is not a lot of money. This does not necessarily indicate desire to build anytime soon. It will however make the property more saleable to someone who thinks SP's vision is a good one.

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Typically the filing fee is pocket change, next to what you pay the various lawyers, engineers, and architects who create all of the paperwork that must be filed. I don't know what that amount is, but it's surely a LOT more than $150,00.

From today's Rutland Herald

KILLINGTON — A local developer has received a permit to begin a $100 million project, but the permit conditions might prompt the developer to appeal.

On Monday, the District 1 Environmental Commission issued an Act 250 permit to SP Land Company to allow the developer to begin the first phase of Killington Village. The permit has been a long time coming, and SP Land President Steven Selbo expressed a reserved form of celebration Monday night.

“I’m excited to take this step, is the best way to put it,” Selbo said, noting SP Land filed the permit application in February 2012. “I’m happy we’ve gotten to this step.”

SP Land actually received two permits Monday.

The first was to construct a 1,276-car parking lot and to realign Killington Road and the parking lot of the Killington Grand Resort Hotel.

The second permit allows SP Land to construct 193 residential units; a 32-unit subdivision; 31,622 square feet of commercial and retail space; and a 77,000-square-foot skier services building to replace the Ramshead and Snowlodge base lodges.

The proposed conditions surrounding the second permit have proven the most contentious for SP Land and the three organizations with party status including: Rutland Regional Planning Commission, Southern Windsor County Regional Planning Commission and Two Rivers-Ottauquechee Regional Commission.

In January, the three commissions sent a letter to the District 1 Environmental Commission, suggesting that after the completion of phase one, SP Land be compelled to conduct a traffic corridor study along Killington Road, Route 4, Route 100 and Route 103 arteries from Killington to Interstate 89 and I-91.

SP Land objected to this condition, asserting in a letter in January the proposed permit conditions “as a whole are well outside the scope of what is permissible under Act 250.”

During hearings in 2012, the Agency of Transportation, SP Land and the three planning commissions agreed with the findings of a traffic study showing no mitigation measures would be required for phase one.

The Rutland Regional Planning Commission withdrew its support of making the condition mandatory, but the other two planning commissions maintained their collective position.

In issuing the permit, the District 1 Environmental Commission decided to make the study mandatory. SP Land would be obligated to pay for as much as 50 percent of the study, with a cap of $25,000. The Agency of Transportation and the three regional planning commissions would fund the balance of the study.

The scope of the study is unclear; it refers to studying “traffic impacts from the Phase I development upon the Killington Road/US4/VT103 corridors from Killington to I-91 and I-89.” There is no reference to Route 100.

Selbo said he has not decided if he will appeal the decision.

“We’re just letting this sink in right now,” Selbo said. “I’m cautiously optimistic we will find a way to work with everyone.”

SP Land has 15 days from the date the permit was issued to file a motion to alter the permit.

A last-minute suggestion from the Rutland Regional Planning Commission to force SP Land to include 495 units of affordable housing was not included as a permit condition.