Big Burke announcement

thetrailboss · Dec 20, 2013

kingdom-tele said:
do what you need to do.

Tell me how to differentiate the line between helping the "Q" and helping the community? Where does one begin and the other end so I know exactly how to screw one of them but not the other.

Ary drew the line pretty clearly IMHO.

thetrailboss · Dec 20, 2013

kingdom-tele said:
can't it. isn't that the whole point of this development. to bring in people to spend money. isn't this regime the salvation.

Either way, I think your looking at backwards, the community can and will survive, it may be better off with outside money flowing like the salmon of capistrano, but pretending the community will crumble away because Burke is being run by people staring at a bottom line is to ignore the past TB, you know that. The NEK may lack a lot of things, but people pull it together here better than most places.

I think if you were to ask J/maybe steve is reading this, he and they would attest that J most certainly relies on its community

Here's the thing: Burke needs both locals and out-of-towners. However, Burke has done its best (relatively speaking) when it embraced the community. You may not remember but locals volunteered and helped "Bring Back the Bear" in 2000.

You're focusing a lot on us but not seeing the whole picture and that is that Ary, with a big smile, has said he is going alone. He is alienating folks in the community. That's the issue. This is not the first time he has done it over the past few months.

from_the_NEK · Dec 20, 2013

kingdom-tele said:
Either way, I think your looking at backwards, the community can and will survive, it may be better off with outside money flowing like the salmon of capistrano, but pretending the community will crumble away because Burke is being run by people staring at a bottom line is to ignore the past TB, you know that. The NEK may lack a lot of things, but people pull it together here better than most places.

I agree with this 100%. We're resourceful up here in these parts even if Domeskier thinks we are a bunch of backwoods hicks. :spin:

noreasterbackcountry · Dec 20, 2013

Kingdomtele has a good point about the fact the boycott would hurt the locals as well as QBurke.

However, if the choice is to force QBurke to go out of business versus let their exceedingly poor judgment further damage the community and future devleopment in the NEK at large, then I would take the former.

Is there an alternative here like a change in management? Doesn't he answer to a board? Investors?

oldtimer · Dec 20, 2013

FWIW- here is another lens to view this through. Let us suppose that Ari is not particularly skilled at running this type of operation and not experienced (mature?) enough to move with a light touch. I think it may also be the case that he has been charged to try and make the place run at break even or better in it's current configuration. In theory the foreign investment money is not to be spent on operations, only on Cap-Ex. So to the extent there are losses, it will come out of someone's pocket. I am certain that the mountain was rarely run at break-even since ticket sales are the only revenue stream. It looks to me like a big ego with bad instincts and an impossible task (ok, a HUGE ego).

Lots of my friends work there and some are gone. Those that are left are in the "we do what we are told" mode and none to thrilled by it. But it is their job and they need those jobs. The KT thing stinks at many levels as has been well reported here.

I am saddened by many, many things I have seen this year. But in the end I will be sadder if Q's ineptitude does NELSAP Burke. So I come down with Kingdom-tele. I will ski with my friends and enjoy a hill I prefer to Jay Peak. Burke has changed many a "I have all the answers" owners and managers before Q2. Perhaps in time he will gain some humility and gain some respect for those around him.

meanwhile- who can do anything about the forecast for the next week?

thetrailboss said:
Here's the thing: Burke needs both locals and out-of-towners. However, Burke has done its best (relatively speaking) when it embraced the community. You may not remember but locals volunteered and helped "Bring Back the Bear" in 2000.

You're focusing a lot on us but not seeing the whole picture and that is that Ary, with a big smile, has said he is going alone. He is alienating folks in the community. That's the issue. This is not the first time he has done it over the past few months.

thetrailboss · Dec 20, 2013

noreasterbackcountry said:
Kingdomtele has a good point about the fact the boycott would hurt the locals as well as QBurke.

However, if the choice is to force QBurke to go out of business versus let their exceedingly poor judgment further damage the community and future devleopment in the NEK at large, then I would take the former.

Is there an alternative here like a change in management? Doesn't he answer to a board? Investors?

He answers to Daddy.

kingdom-tele · Dec 20, 2013

thetrailboss said:
Here's the thing: Burke needs both locals and out-of-towners. However, Burke has done its best (relatively speaking) when it embraced the community. You may not remember but locals volunteered and helped "Bring Back the Bear" in 2000.

You're focusing a lot on us but not seeing the whole picture and that is that Ary, with a big smile, has said he is going alone. He is alienating folks in the community. That's the issue. This is not the first time he has done it over the past few months.

He can do whatever the hell he wants, its up to you and everyone else to decide if your money is better spent elsewhere. He is going alone because they have money and a lot of it. The reality is they will build their development, people will come and pay out the nose to use it and they don't need you/me ultimately.

Shake your fist all you want, don't go, draw your lines, but all that crap disappears when your riding the lift with your buddies, railing big turns down a deserted dippers, and drinking beer with friends after. the rest is in your head.

my only hope now is the trail crew can make some money now that they are seperated.

from_the_NEK · Dec 20, 2013

oldtimer said:
FWIW- here is another lens to view this through. Let us suppose that Ari is not particularly skilled at running this type of operation and not experienced (mature?) enough to move with a light touch. I think it may also be the case that he has been charged to try and make the place run at break even or better in it's current configuration. In theory the foreign investment money is not to be spent on operations, only on Cap-Ex. So to the extent there are losses, it will come out of someone's pocket. I am certain that the mountain was rarely run at break-even since ticket sales are the only revenue stream. It looks to me like a big ego with bad instincts and an impossible task (ok, a HUGE ego).

I think Burke has run in the red for years since as you point out, their income is almost totally based on ticket sales. The money to keep things running has had to come out of the owners pocket which is something the Quiros’ seem to be trying to avoid.

The thing is, at this rate it seems like they willing to burn down the house in order save a few $ while they plan to build a bigger nicer mansion that will no longer have a family to live in it.

It seems a bit of patience is called for here while the grand plan is executed.

On the other hand maybe Q2 is trying to impress dad with his aggressive/heavy handed business management style. Something that doesn’t really work well in the hospitality, recreation sector.

thetrailboss · Dec 20, 2013

kingdom-tele said:
He can do whatever the hell he wants, its up to you and everyone else to decide if your money is better spent elsewhere. He is going alone because they have money and a lot of it. The reality is they will build their development, people will come and pay out the nose to use it and they don't need you/me ultimately.

Not so sure about that. If they come out with a loss again this season, who is to say that Ary stays? They are not going to throw good money after bad. I think that Bill could tell them that it will work with the right management. And you're not seeing my point that they draw more folks from the local community than out of town right now. There is not a large pool of out-of-towners who will suddenly appear on Route 114 when the thing is built--it is just that competitive.

Shake your fist all you want, don't go, draw your lines, but all that crap disappears when your riding the lift with your buddies, railing big turns down a deserted dippers, and drinking beer with friends after. the rest is in your head.

Wow...something is wrong with KT!

thetrailboss · Dec 20, 2013

from_the_NEK said:
I think Burke has run in the red for years since as you point out, their income is almost totally based on ticket sales. The money to keep things running has had to come out of the owners pocket which is something the Quiros’ seem to be trying to avoid.

The thing is, at this rate it seems like they willing to burn down the house in order save a few $ while they plan to build a bigger nicer mansion that will no longer have a family to live in it.

It seems a bit of patience is called for here while the grand plan is executed.

On the other hand maybe Q2 is trying to impress dad with his aggressive/heavy handed business management style. Something that doesn’t really work well in the hospitality, recreation sector.

Bingo all around here. Although I think that people have given him 10 months and he's shown what he is going to do.

kingdom-tele · Dec 20, 2013

TB- the point I thought was that Burke couldn't survive with local support, that has changed now?

Your so sure, its working at J right?

Nothing is wrong with me, I still fully expect the rich to get richer and when they don't dump and run like they always do, which is why all this shitstorm is stupid IMO, a bunch of people who love burke for what it is kicking the snowbank pretending they can't "go" there anymore because the owner is a goober and if he would just do what I like then I could go back.

the funny part will be in the summer when they charge double for the lift served mt bike and people still pay it

thetrailboss · Dec 20, 2013

kingdom-tele said:
TB- the point I thought was that Burke couldn't survive with local support, that has changed now?

My position is, and was, the same. There is a symbiotic relationship between the two and QBurke stands to lose the most out of taking the ball and going home.

noreasterbackcountry · Dec 20, 2013

thetrailboss said:
He answers to Daddy.

I thought there was a board of directors...

kingdom-tele · Dec 20, 2013

thetrailboss said:
My position is, and was, the same. There is a symbiotic relationship between the two and QBurke stands to lose the most out of taking the ball and going home.

rich man moves on. nothing new. bring on the next visionary. we'll all still be living here shaking our heads trying to earn a living and having fun.

the rest of this is for everyone else to debate the intricacies of good business and where they want to spend their money

thetrailboss · Dec 20, 2013

noreasterbackcountry said:
I thought there was a board of directors...

Not for QBurke. It is just Daddy and son AFAIK. Bill might have a minority interest, but JPR has done a good job distancing themselves.

from_the_NEK · Dec 20, 2013

kingdom-tele said:
rich man moves on. nothing new. bring on the next visionary. we'll all still be living here shaking our heads trying to earn a living and having fun.

the rest of this is for everyone else to debate the intricacies of good business and where they want to spend their money

True, at some point you just have to let go, let the $ men do what they do and you continue to try to enjoy doing what you do.

noreasterbackcountry · Dec 20, 2013

From a previous Digger article:

I’m expecting between 100 and 150 investors to come from this trip,” Stenger said Tuesday, the majority to solidify in the next 30 days.
That would yield between $50 million and $75 million in capital, to be split between Newport’s future AnC Bio and Burke Mountain. Stenger is not authorized yet to raise funds for Jay Peak’s other planned development, a combined mixed-use block, marina and waterfront hotel in downtown Newport.

This would imply that the money invested is not Q's money but would come from other outside investors. I would assume there would be some mechanism for the outside investors to exert control over the management process. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the EB-5 rules require active investment.

oldtimer · Dec 20, 2013

Yes, I believe they do require active investment. But we do not know what they are investing in. For instance it may be the EB-5 money is being invested in the hotel as a stand alone project.

from_the_NEK · Dec 20, 2013

oldtimer said:
Yes, I believe they do require active investment. But we do not know what they are investing in. For instance it may be the EB-5 money is being invested in the hotel as a stand alone project.

That is correct. EB-5 investment money is only available for new capital investments that "create jobs", like a hotel. That money can't be used to improve on mountain infrastructure or renovation of existing buildings. The investors of the money can choose what capital projects they want to invest in. They typically want to choose the ones with the best chance of producing the employment numbers that will ensure their green card is approved.

noreasterbackcountry · Dec 20, 2013

oldtimer said:
Yes, I believe they do require active investment. But we do not know what they are investing in. For instance it may be the EB-5 money is being invested in the hotel as a stand alone project.

Got it. In other words, QBurke may be operations only with separate entities responsible for the hotel, pool, indoor bike park.. etc.

Big Burke announcement

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