Big Burke announcement

from_the_NEK · Feb 10, 2014

Big Wave Dave said:
Trailboss, OF COURSE I am stirring the pot

We are on the same page my friend and you nail it with the difference between Ascutney and Mascara Mtn (old name for the 'Bush)- but again as a former corporate dingbat, don’t you and the others mistake errors of execution with errors of strategy- the prior can be corrected and with tenure I believe will-your synopsis is SPOT ON, and really, the first constructive criticsm I have seen on this thread.
Up to this point I have seen page after page of criticsm of execution.

regarding strategy, lets change the talk.

What are your thoughts and the other members on the viability of the hotel, training faciliites, etc.

because at the end of the day, these are the elements that truly define the sustainability of Burke. Not if Q Sr. badmouthed an NEK hero, or that Q jr. thinks lift serviced mtn biking is viable without a KT nexus. Location and circumstance are far harder to change than rhetoric. This is all a tempest in a teapot compared to what happens if they don’t build what they say and change that fundamental dynamic.

As I've stated before, Burke is in a tough location and the Hotel has been something Burke has been lacking for a LONG time. The other training facilities (tennis/swimming/diving) will provide a lot of "non-skiing" guests to help pay the bills. HOWEVER, are these things going to get enough EB-5 support with the way things have gone in the last 8 months? Those investors want to choose a project that has a good chance of succeeding or else their money was thrown into a hole and they don't get their green card(s). Things seem to be stabilizing a bit but I may be hesitant if I was an EB-5 investor right now looking at Burke.

VTKilarney · Feb 10, 2014

I'll take the bait.

I am in the camp that believes that the best bet for Burke's survival is to develop hotel rooms at the base. That has always been an weak spot for Burke. If you get people into rooms they spent a LOT more money than they would just buying a lift ticket.

But here is the key. There are other mountains with hotels. If Burke wants to fill rooms, they need to deliver a decent product. The mountain is a great mountain. But they need to give people confidence that the snow will be on the ground. If Ary can improve the snowmaking situation next year, I will be very optimistic.

I also believe that Ary needs to find a way to work again with Kingdom Trails. I don't want to hear that he plans on talking. I want to hear about an agreement. The two organizations are MUCH better working together than going it on their own. Very few mountains the size of Burke do as well developing business in the summer. If it were not for the mountain biking, any hotel would sit nearly empty in the summer. It behooves both Burke and KT to make the mountain biking experience as seamless as possible.

Again, I freely admit that I have been to quick to criticize Ary. He deserves a chance. If he has learned his lesson, then I give him all of my support. I'm just overly anxious right now to see if that's really happened.

I did see him in the base lodge this afternoon trying to strike up some conversations with guests. I think that's a step in the right direction - but I also hope to see some more substantive actions.

thetrailboss · Feb 10, 2014

from_the_NEK said:
As I've stated before, Burke is in a tough location and the Hotel has been something Burke has been lacking for a LONG time. The other training facilities (tennis/swimming/diving) will provide a lot of "non-skiing" guests to help pay the bills. HOWEVER, are these things going to get enough EB-5 support with the way things have gone in the last 8 months? Those investors want to choose a project that has a good chance of succeeding or else their money was thrown into a hole and they don't get their green card(s). Things seem to be stabilizing a bit but I may be hesitant if I was an EB-5 investor right now looking at Burke.

Exactly.

Big Wave Dave is very new to the scene here, so he has not seen the pages and pages of discussion on the hotel and the "strategy" that we’ve all hashed out. There’s more than meets the eye.

thetrailboss · Feb 10, 2014

VTKilarney said:
I'll take the bait.

I am in the camp that believes that the best bet for Burke's survival is to develop hotel rooms at the base. That has always been an weak spot for Burke. If you get people into rooms they spent a LOT more money than they would just buying a lift ticket.

But here is the key. There are other mountains with hotels. If Burke wants to fill rooms, they need to deliver a decent product. The mountain is a great mountain. But they need to give people confidence that the snow will be on the ground. If Ary can improve the snowmaking situation next year, I will be very optimistic.

I also believe that Ary needs to find a way to work again with Kingdom Trails. I don't want to hear that he plans on talking. I want to hear about an agreement. The two organizations are MUCH better working together than going it on their own. Very few mountains the size of Burke do as well developing business in the summer. If it were not for the mountain biking, any hotel would sit nearly empty in the summer. It behooves both Burke and KT to make the mountain biking experience as seamless as possible.

Again, I freely admit that I have been to quick to criticize Ary. He deserves a chance. If he has learned his lesson, then I give him all of my support. I'm just overly anxious right now to see if that's really happened.

I did see him in the base lodge this afternoon trying to strike up some conversations with guests. I think that's a step in the right direction - but I also hope to see some more substantive actions.

+ 1 on all points.

burski · Feb 10, 2014

Big Wave Dave said:
Trailboss, OF COURSE I am stirring the pot

We are on the same page my friend and you nail it with the difference between Ascutney and Mascara Mtn (old name for the 'Bush)- but again as a former corporate dingbat, don’t you and the others mistake errors of execution with errors of strategy- the prior can be corrected and with tenure I believe will-your synopsis is SPOT ON, and really, the first constructive criticsm I have seen on this thread.
Up to this point I have seen page after page of criticsm of execution.

regarding strategy, lets change the talk.

What are your thoughts and the other members on the viability of the hotel, training faciliites, etc.

because at the end of the day, these are the elements that truly define the sustainability of Burke. Not if Q Sr. badmouthed an NEK hero, or that Q jr. thinks lift serviced mtn biking is viable without a KT nexus. Location and circumstance are far harder to change than rhetoric. This is all a tempest in a teapot compared to what happens if they don’t build what they say and change that fundamental dynamic.

To blame what has happened to date as “errors of execution:blink:” is generous indeed, any sort of thought out strategy would anticipate what is needed to execute that strategy - the strategy to date seems to be to not have a strategy, or worse a very ill-conceived strategy...Although things appear to be getting better, there is still a long way to go.
the snowmaking remains horrible, this past thursday on the first true powder day of the season the bread and butter trial, Dippers was unskiable as it was a sheet of ice - an inexperienced snowmaking plan to make snow during a snow storm and then groom it before it gets a chance to set up left the trail hazardous, even this weekend it was rough. they then made snow on Foxes :snow:

(credit for that) but the inexperience of the snowmaking staff showed again as this trail is now unskiable as the snowmaking piles literally create a series of hazard that are not enjoyable or worth negotiating.

As for a comparison of how Burke is doing vs the rest of Vermont I would say not good - I have heard from reliable sources that revenue is down over 40% -the rest of the state is down less then 10%

I also heard that the majority of their kitchen staff quit this past Thursday night in the middle of the shift walking out while the restaurant was still open - vacation week should be a treat if that is true...

Then there is the rumor that is now going around that the hotel may not start this summer (or this year)

Granted there is a lot of second hand information here but most of the second hand information I have heard this year has ended up being spot on.... :thumbdown:

thetrailboss · Feb 10, 2014

burski said:
To blame what has happened to date as “errors of execution:blink:” is generous indeed, any sort of thought out strategy would anticipate what is needed to execute that strategy - the strategy to date seems to be to not have a strategy, or worse a very ill-conceived strategy...Although things appear to be getting better, there is still a long way to go.

Well said. I realized the same thing as I was thinking about it on my way home but I did not want to hurt the new guy's feelings.

Anyways, I agree that no matter how awesome their "strategy" may be, they will not make it with these stupid "errors of execution." That's kind of like saying that the Broncos last week had a real "awesome game winning strategy", but for a few "errors of execution".

It seems odd to espouse the wisdom of running a business but then brush off what are basic Marketing 101 issues.

the snowmaking remains horrible, this past thursday on the first true powder day of the season the bread and butter trial, Dippers was unskiable as it was a sheet of ice - an inexperienced snowmaking plan to make snow during a snow storm and then groom it before it gets a chance to set up left the trail hazardous, even this weekend it was rough. they then made snow on Foxes (credit for that) but the inexperience of the snowmaking staff showed again as this trail is now unskiable as the snowmaking piles literally create a series of hazard that are not enjoyable or worth negotiating.

Completely foreseeable. Let go of your mountain ops staff and the VP for Mountain Ops, who has more experience than Ary is in age, and you get this. All for a few bucks. I'm glad that Ary is out there on the snowmobile watching and learning, but to do so at the expense of 40% of your revenue so far makes no sense at all either. It also impedes their plans for the future because they are just so much in the red. Sound familiar?! Yep, previous Burke management have made the same mistake (Ginn, Bear Kingdom, etc.)

As for a comparison of how Burke is doing vs the rest of Vermont I would say not good - I have heard from reliable sources that revenue is down over 40% -the rest of the state is down less then 10%

This reflects the weather, lack of snowmaking, and the negative PR to a certain extent. Remember that the whole PR disaster began literally days before Christmas Break. The Break that they had terrible conditions. Remember? Who would be there to buy the tickets and ski during such a crummy week? The same locals you just pissed on.

I also heard that the majority of their kitchen staff quit this past Thursday night in the middle of the shift walking out while the restaurant was still open - vacation week should be a treat if that is true...

Wow that sucks. Was it because of Q?

Then there is the rumor that is now going around that the hotel may not start this summer (or this year)

Granted there is a lot of second hand information here but most of the second hand information I have heard this year has ended up being spot on....

Makes perfect sense. A bad year is not going to encourage investors to pony up $500k for an EB-5 project if they cannot even run the place. I think that if the debacle continues that Bill will step in and turn things around because if the negative vibe gets out it will spook investors.

And if Bill is reading, I know that some of these "negative" AZer's were at the focus group last year and gave feedback that so far has been ignored. We'd love to give you constructive input on what to do in order to do things around so that the whole thing does not go down the drain.

VTKilarney · Feb 10, 2014

If the overall strategy was to bring about profitability, it's no secret that the execution was to slash operating expenses - rather than improve the overall product. I am sympathetic to reducing operating expenses where it makes sense to do so, but snowmaking suffered dearly. Apparently there was no sacred cow. Whether it's because this was a conscious decision or whether this was a result of eliminating institutional memory, I am not sure. No matter the cause, the result is what mattered.

Interesting observation regarding the Dippers. I was scratching my head on Sunday trying to figure out why they were so crunchy after a snowfall.

thetrailboss · Feb 10, 2014

And to be honest I don't think that any of us are saying that operating a ski area is an "easy" business. It is not. It has evolved into a very specialized industry. Just because one has a business degree does not guarantee success in the biz. In many ways it is very counterintuitive....your highest demand is when your "product" is very limited and at its worst quality and demand is zip when your product is at its best and when there is the most selection (early season vs. late season). It is also a very capital intensive industry. To add insult to injury Vermont is not the most friendly place for a ski area looking to expand. We'll save that for another discussion.

thetrailboss · Feb 10, 2014

VTKilarney said:
If the overall strategy was to bring about profitability, it's no secret that the execution was to slash operating expenses - rather than improve the overall product. I am sympathetic to reducing operating expenses where it makes sense to do so, but snowmaking suffered dearly. Apparently there was no sacred cow. Whether it's because this was a conscious decision or whether this was a result of eliminating institutional memory, I am not sure. No matter the cause, the result is what mattered.

Interesting observation regarding the Dippers. I was scratching my head on Sunday trying to figure out why they were so crunchy after a snowfall.

See I can see them cutting some things, but to be honest it was pretty bare bones to begin with and they cut way too far. Why eliminate the ticket desk at Mid-Burke when lots of experts and intermediates wen there to start (so did racers and their families)? That just hurts the service-side. Why eliminate your institutional knowledge for such a specialized industry to save a few bucks? Why spend thousands on a dumb, and needless, logo change and then turn around and fight with a local non-profit that has driven business to you for $20,000? Their perceived "savings" ended up costing a ton. See what I mean by it being a tough business that is very specialized and not necessarily fitting into the typical "business" model?

thetrailboss · Feb 10, 2014

And I am hearing from other local sources in the know that the rumor about the kitchen staff is true.

billski · Feb 11, 2014

I just read the piece on Stenger in the Spring

issue of SKI magazine. In it he said they are looking for $250 to 400 million for Burke over the next five years. I do recall this being said a while ago, but it kind of blew my mind, thinking back on this thread. With that much money, they will do as they damn well pleaseq. I'm sure they see this as a short lived period of denialq. With that kind of infusion of capital and the jobs it will create, well, I'm sure that Q and q are not feeling any less confident. Sad to say...

ScottySkis · Feb 11, 2014

Basically what happened to K for about a decade is now starting at Burke. I didn't ski at Killington for 10 years because of bad business decisions. New K is awesome and I been there first day this year in November and hopefully I be their few more times this season. Maybe on 4/20/14

thetrailboss · Feb 11, 2014

billski said:
I just read the piece on Stenger in the Spring issue of SKI magazine. In it he said they are looking for $250 to 400 million for Burke over the next five years. I do recall this being said a while ago, but it kind of blew my mind, thinking back on this thread. With that much money, they will do as they damn well pleaseq. I'm sure they see this as a short lived period of denialq. With that kind of infusion of capital and the jobs it will create, well, I'm sure that Q and q are not feeling any less confident. Sad to say...

The money isn't in hand yet.

VTKilarney · Feb 11, 2014

Is there any way to check the status of EB-5 funding? I haven't found any such website in my very quick search.

They are still reporting that they will break ground this spring:
http://www.skiburke.com/our-direction/

If you click on the "about the owners" tab, it still lists the Menck Window Systems project, which according to VTDigger is a dead EB-5 project.

thetrailboss · Feb 11, 2014

VTKilarney said:
Is there any way to check the status of EB-5 funding? I haven't found any such website in my very quick search.

They are still reporting that they will break ground this spring:
http://www.skiburke.com/our-direction/

If you click on the "about the owners" tab, it still lists the Menck Window Systems project, which according to VTDigger is a dead EB-5 project.

My understanding was that they were still fundraising for Burke.

VTKilarney · Feb 11, 2014

thetrailboss said:
My understanding was that they were still fundraising for Burke.

I was just wondering if there was any sort of way to track how much had been raised.

thetrailboss · Feb 11, 2014

VTKilarney said:
I was just wondering if there was any sort of way to track how much had been raised.

Yeah I don't know. Maybe Google the VT EB-5 service center?

noreasterbackcountry · Feb 11, 2014

If foreign investors are the "deep pockets" and Stenger and the EB-5 center are setting the development strategy- remind me again what Q Jr's role is in all of this...?

Oh yeah, operations. So far he has told the local community he distrusts 90% of them (who are supposedly out to see him fail), damaged relations with KT (a golden egg laying summer goose that also happens to be his surrounding landowners and key to any local permitting), and is on track to oversee a significant shortfall in revenue.

I'd like to see the investment that the EB-5 program can bring to the area, but I don't see why he is a necessary part of that. In fact, the more he destroys the cache built by Jay's success the more he becomes a liability and obstacle to raising the funds necessary to see the project to fruition.

Aside from the operations and PR miscues, why would you want someone who distrusts 90% of the local community, and is so obviously lacking in experience in charge of what promises to be an incredibly delicate process of balancing development with maintaining the character of the area?

thetrailboss · Feb 11, 2014

noreasterbackcountry said:
If foreign investors are the "deep pockets" and Stenger and the EB-5 center are setting the development strategy- remind me again what Q Jr's role is in all of this...?

Oh yeah, operations. So far he has told the local community he distrusts 90% of them (who are supposedly out to see him fail), damaged relations with KT (a golden egg laying summer goose that also happens to be his surrounding landowners and key to any local permitting), and is on track to oversee a significant shortfall in revenue.

I'd like to see the investment that the EB-5 program can bring to the area, but I don't see why he is a necessary part of that. In fact, the more he destroys the cache built by Jay's success the more he becomes a liability and obstacle to raising the funds necessary to see the project to fruition.

Aside from the operations and PR miscues, why would you want someone who distrusts 90% of the local community, and is so obviously lacking in experience in charge of what promises to be an incredibly delicate process of balancing development with maintaining the character of the area?

Exactly. Thank you.

VTKilarney · Feb 17, 2014

What do folks make of this?
http://skiburke.com/landing/ski-ride.php?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=seg2&utm_content=im1_co3&utm_campaign=promo45

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