AlpineZone Challenge 2012 Results - Steve Wright of Jay Peak

Steve, if you are still checking this thread, and you have any input to the powers that be, please see here for some more opinions on the Burke development:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...e-announcement&p=733556&viewfull=1#post733556

With all due respect FB has it right. I know zero Jay skiers or homeowners who think cutting in the Orchard is a good move or necessary for intermediates. In the realm of our glades it is intermediate and people who return to Jay inevitably figure it out and fall in love with it. The bad blood comment hits the nail on the head, why aggravate 99% of your core skiers so you can add 1 more countable trail. Please leave better enough alone on this one Walter, Steve & Bill.

Even being dead set against cutting down the Orchard, I have to disagree that this would aggravate 99% while only helping 1% of skiers. There are many die hard "core" Jay skiers that have never been out there (not everyone skis off map glades, hell, not everyone skis glades). And Jay has a severe lack of intermediate pitched cruising (especially such trails that are not severely wind exposed and buffed out by the wind 10 seconds after they get groomed, let alone what happens when you add in ski traffic). Those of us against this new trail should argue more reasonably. We CANNOT argue that Jay doesn't need more intermediate cruising. It is simply not true. And we can't argue there are more tree skiers at Jay than non-tree skiers. We don't pay the majority of the bills. We just don't.

But we are a large and important demographic and I think the passion for that chunk of trees is clearly evident here. I don't think there would be as much fierce commentary if almost any other off map area was on the chopping block. Or even some on map trees (there are many I could care less about).

The big issue here, in my mind, is that up until this point... Jay's development has not effected the skiing/riding and tree culture of Jay. This would be a major faux pas in the eyes of most Jay tree skiers. Unlike the Unchangeable campaign of last year, it would show that JPR is definitely changeable and is no longer just changing the base areas and beginner areas to accommodate increasing guest numbers... but taking it against its core tree skier base that didn't care for major resort build up but went along with it no problem since the on mountain experience remained unchanged.

riverc0il said:

Even being dead set against cutting down the Orchard, I have to disagree that this would aggravate 99% while only helping 1% of skiers. There are many die hard "core" Jay skiers that have never been out there (not everyone skis off map glades, hell, not everyone skis glades). And Jay has a severe lack of intermediate pitched cruising (especially such trails that are not severely wind exposed and buffed out by the wind 10 seconds after they get groomed, let alone what happens when you add in ski traffic). Those of us against this new trail should argue more reasonably. We CANNOT argue that Jay doesn't need more intermediate cruising. It is simply not true. And we can't argue there are more tree skiers at Jay than non-tree skiers. We don't pay the majority of the bills. We just don't.

But we are a large and important demographic and I think the passion for that chunk of trees is clearly evident here. I don't think there would be as much fierce commentary if almost any other off map area was on the chopping block. Or even some on map trees (there are many I could care less about).

The big issue here, in my mind, is that up until this point... Jay's development has not effected the skiing/riding and tree culture of Jay. This would be a major faux pas in the eyes of most Jay tree skiers. Unlike the Unchangeable campaign of last year, it would show that JPR is definitely changeable and is no longer just changing the base areas and beginner areas to accommodate increasing guest numbers... but taking it against its core tree skier base that didn't care for major resort build up but went along with it no problem since the on mountain experience remained unchanged.

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I agree with several of your points, however:

- the natural pitch of the Orchard is quite steep at the beginning and then it mellows out rapidly as you get back to the resort. Not the stuff for a good natural intermediate run. Sure, you can move earth and manage something with a reasonable gradient, but the natural terrain is not good for an intermediate cruiser. If you could manage 2 or 3 decent intermediate runs, butchering the Orchard might be worth it.

-while there are less tree skiers than non-tree skiers, they make for a large percentage of the hardcore skiers. On any mid-week powder day, the woods get tracked just as fast as the groomers and the first chair dudes head straight for the woods. I don't get to see Jay Peak books but my fear is that the hardcore mid-week powder day dudes bring in a lot less money than the waterpark people.

- Among skiers, Jay is known for three things: lotsa snow, glades, and its very liberal out-of-bound policy. The problem is that it is now getting known as the 'waterpark place'. This bring lots of beginners and intermediates to the hill, and Jay is not and never will be the best mountain for them. Forcing one new intermediate run will not change that.

'JPR is definitely changeable' I think you nailed it. That's what is making skiers nervous.

LOL at the first chair dudes heading straight for the woods on a powder day. There is nothing I like more at Jay than ripping down something like the Jet or Haynes on an untracked foot of fresh blow. Woods aren't meant for the first chair unless you are way back in line.

Agreed that one extra intermediate run is not going to make Jay intermediate friendly. I made this argument previously that Jay should focus on West Bowl being their game changer. An Orchard groomer run would also be difficult regarding accessibility being on the boundary of a very wide area (and it is a haul to get back to the chair, lots of flat and then a bit uphill, not intermediate friendly). And it will be the only trail over there aside from Montrealer which is a throw away run to get back to other locales.

I was just at Jay yesterday and the development happening right now is absolutely crazy. There is SO MUCH going on, so much construction. The on going Jay face lift has moved Stateside. If they went to West Bowl, they wouldn't need to worry about that one single solitary intermediate run off the Jet.

there is plenty of "intermediate" skiing at J. the push to provide more milktoast skiing is an indication of the resorts future, the mid week skiers are the same mid week skiers that have been there for decades, got their money already, to fill the cofers they need more "skiable" marketable terrain. the arguement that its windblown and shitty is beside the point, the wind isn't going anywhere, isn't that being raised jay? aren't you supposed to adapt to the challenge. I won't be surprised if they build a giant wall so its more comfortable for the folks with money staying for the weekend

riverc0il said:

The big issue here, in my mind, is that up until this point... Jay's development has not effected the skiing/riding and tree culture of Jay. This would be a major faux pas in the eyes of most Jay tree skiers. Unlike the Unchangeable campaign of last year, it would show that JPR is definitely changeable and is no longer just changing the base areas and beginner areas to accommodate increasing guest numbers... but taking it against its core tree skier base that didn't care for major resort build up but went along with it no problem since the on mountain experience remained unchanged.

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Agree with this... that is "my" perspective as well coming from someone who's skied here all of his life... soon coming into my 30th straight season.

But i do realise that we (the tree skiers/riders) don't represent the best money income... we don't come for the waterpark... but we come back for trees and snow.

On the other end, the "blue cruisers" do come for the waterpark, the arcade, the restaurants and then if they get to ski, that's a bonus... so they'll spend even more money.

Of course, like many here, i'm affraid of the "changeables" when it comes to terrain we've been riding for years and that sees more traffic then many trails that need to be grommed. I'm sure that on a regular snowy days, the Orchard gets more trafic then The Flash... and the Flash is an incredible blue trail... one of my favorite! But since there is no more mid-station on the old double, you can't get there very easily...

Anyways. We're still hoping that the Orchard doesn't get turned into a blue trail. That would be a great loss.

(plus, from a design perspective, i doubt that this trail would be the narrow new england style of trails... it would be a 4 groomers wide instead of a 2 groomers wide. People would ride down way to fast on it... and coming out of Timbuktu, people would be cut-off by people cutting lower to the road)

Occupy The Orchard!

This is a great discussion and it is reassuring to see the passion of fellow Jay die-hards. I really hope your words don't fall on deaf ears. Well, maybe not totally deaf, because at least we know Steve@JPR pays attention. BigJay's comment about The Flash got me thinking about a theme I started on my blog but never really finished: The Lost Runs of Jay Peak. Over all the years of lift and trail realignment, many great runs have become underused and kind of forgotten, except by those of us who either seek them out or stumble upon them. The Flash is a great example, as are Wedelmaster, Lower Milk, Poma Line, Sweetheart, JFK and Kitzbuhel. Then there are runs that are on the trail count but hardly ever skied, like St. George's Prayer. And then there are runs that have been lost forever, like Can-Am.

The point is that Jay Peak could do a lot better at directing people to find and use the terrain that already exists. Publish a Jay Peak guidebook, make it an App, fer gawd's sake. Did you ever wonder why the upper Goat is such a clusterf**k? Most of the people there have no idea where else to go! It is a complicated mountain for a new visitor - help them out. This effort would cost practically nothing and help spread people around. OK, BigJay and I will not get first tracks on The Flash but at least The Orchard could be saved. Make better use of the terrain you have before creating a new run that will not serve any purpose but to destroy a classic glade.

IMHO the Freezer was the biggest mistake ever made at Jay Peak and Alligator Alley a close second. The old Green Mountain Chair served the terrain in a much better fashion and the mid-station was a great option (unless you were not paying attention). I may have said this before but my radical idea would be to rip out the top part of the Flyer, re-align it to the old Green Mountain Chair exit location, then (gasp) put in a new "upper mountain lift" that starts roughly at the Kokomo entrance and exits about where the Flyer does now. Yes, this would put chair towers up the side of Ullr's and into (dare I say it) Dogpatch but really, do you think people would get this worked up about that? The "pod" (I hate that term but it works) created by such a lift would be intermediate heaven, not to mention the multiple laps one could get on BP, Andre's, Staircase and Everglade. And the spring skiing! And the best part, this would save other stashes for the rest of us . And for good measure, put in a warming hut and cafe. Think of the view in the spring!

Good points to you both about the terrain options being limited by not having an intermediate lift where the Green Mountain Chair used to service via mid-station. Those are all good runs up there and I always forget about the Flash, great little shot. But they are a pain to lap via the Freezer because you have to deal with the Freezer and the Goat. I like SBR's idea but too little too late at this point. A lift servicing everything below the Goat on that ridge would really be intermediate haven as SBR says without the pain and agony of the Freezer and the Goat. Ah, if only it could be restarted from scratch.

riverc0il said:

... I like SBR's idea but too little too late at this point. ... Ah, if only it could be restarted from scratch.

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It is never too late for magical thinking.

Sick Bird Rider said:

It is never too late for magical thinking.

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You'll just have to wait until after the west bowl.

^ In whose lifetime is that happening?

Sick Bird Rider said:

IMHO the Freezer was the biggest mistake ever made at Jay Peak and Alligator Alley a close second. The old Green Mountain Chair served the terrain in a much better fashion and the mid-station was a great option (unless you were not paying attention). I may have said this before but my radical idea would be to rip out the top part of the Flyer, re-align it to the old Green Mountain Chair exit location, then (gasp) put in a new "upper mountain lift" that starts roughly at the Kokomo entrance and exits about where the Flyer does now. Yes, this would put chair towers up the side of Ullr's and into (dare I say it) Dogpatch but really, do you think people would get this worked up about that? The "pod" (I hate that term but it works) created by such a lift would be intermediate heaven, not to mention the multiple laps one could get on BP, Andre's, Staircase and Everglade. And the spring skiing! And the best part, this would save other stashes for the rest of us . And for good measure, put in a warming hut and cafe. Think of the view in the spring!

Click to expand...

A lift that would cut the lower part of Ullr's would be a intermediate's haven. You could extend the season of that entire bowl by keeping it open and skiable longer. That bottom part is so flat, it needs very little snow (no snowmaking) to be open... but then it can melt away in two days with all the running water running across it.

The Flyer is a great mistake... because it's always a pain to get up there... it takes forever (even at full speed) and what you're left with is a very short descent... with 2 flats sections: 1 first traverse to get to good stuff, quick down and then a long painful traverse back to base area. The west bowl won't save that.

THe new chair for the bike park... oh sorry, snow park will do exactly that. Instead of having a t-bar that serves only one trail (or 2 if you count the capability of heading tram side and to the village chair). You can access about 7-8 different trails that offer a great learning experience for beginners. The Metro quad is way too long. Beginner take the whole morning to get one run in... get discourage and don't head out much in the afternoon because they lack the energy to do it again.

So yeah, a mid-station to the Flash and Racer was great. Getting up to the top of the flyer will be even more pointless once the 6-pack serves off thru St-George Prayer.

It's a challenging planning job to do it right... and if you know how to work the land and use it properly, it helps. You don't want to leave scars like the Upper goat run and the Can-Am again.

The six pack will be a game changer for the way I ski Jay. It makes it so you can lap everything all the way out to GMB from the 6 (slight up hill traverse to get back -- you can do it already but the uphill traverse, long ski back, and a slow lift means the Freezer is worth the pain).

It will mean the only reason to ride the Flyer is to access anything that ends on Ullr's or to get out of there if you go to something ending on Ullr's from the 6. Once the 6 is in, I really hope they consider cutting the Freezer off at the ridge and following SBR's suggested lift out of Ullr's Bowl. :lol:

What a screwed up mountain regarding layout, lol.

I think the Metro is appropriate length. It gives green circle skiers a LOT of options. And now they have a beginner lift out of both base areas (though you have to hike up from the Stateside lodge to get to that one, WOW what a massive hike for a beginner!! Especially hiking across thru traffic).

Well, at least (I think) we can all agree that the Jet and the Tram are both perfectly placed. :lol:

Let me see if I can put these ideas into pictures...





Rename/Market the "Pod" as 1480' vert "Ullrs Bowl". The lift line as oriented would use JFK as part of its liftline and only clip the very lowest section of Everglade (maybe take Alligator Alley off the map completely, plant some trees and reconnect the top section of Everglade?). Dogpatch would be spared .
The bottom of the lift would be a short flat from the West Bowl base area. Adding this lift would likely require some rethinking of the real estate/building layout slated for development in that area.
"Improving" Northwest Passage to allow direct access from the top of the shortened Flyer would be recommended.
Pay for the Ullr's Bowl lift by only having one lift to the top of Doll Peak. Move the second lift into Ullrs Bowl.

Damn, from_the_NEK... you should be charging for this.

Instead of "improving" NE Passage, another trail could also be built, it might take out the top of North Glade though... like start at the top of GMB and kinda "mirror" NE Passage, ending in the same place.

I really like the looks of this! Bonus points if you can unload the Ullr's Bowl lift so that Poma Line is accessible. That might make Northway a CF, though.

The Ullr's Bowl lfit as drawn unloads at almost the same location as the current Flyer. The traverse over to the Poma Line would be about the same as it is today. I Would take the traverse over moving the lift line to the right and cutting into Dog Patch.
In this senario, since the Flyer is shortened, Northway would be no worse a cluster than it already is.

I like your idea of a "parallel" trail to Northwest Passage.

Like the location of the Ullr's Bowl new lift... but you can't go that low. There is tons of water below the Ullrs and multiple streams that don't show much on line. Plus, it's flat. You're venturing somewhere flatter then Kokomo and Ullr's!

And like you, i would put in only one lift and not two on the WB... Having two lifts is like running a lift on the Derreck. Oh shit, now they'll look into it!

I'm pretty sure it can go that low. According to the "master plan" drawing, it looks like most of those streams/wet areas are a bit further down the Ullrs runout. The thick blue line in the picture below is the main channel that drains the area. By going straight downhill from the start of Kokomo through elbow that begins the runout of Ullrs , you can keep a decent 14% pitch to the liftline. While not super steep, it is better than Kokomo and Ullrs runouts (~10% grade) that run at an angle across the general falline.
The pink trail is where Rivercoil's potential Northwest Passage parallelling trail would go. Moving the bottom of the lift up much higher and you risk making this connection difficult.

Steve should hire you guys. hahaha