AlpineZone Challenge 2012 Results - Steve Wright of Jay Peak

Sick Bird Rider · Nov 9, 2012

from_the_NEK said:
Let me see if I can put these ideas into pictures...

Rename/Market the "Pod" as 1480' vert "Ullrs Bowl". The lift line as oriented would use JFK as part of its liftline and only clip the very lowest section of Everglade (maybe take Alligator Alley off the map completely, plant some trees and reconnect the top section of Everglade?). Dogpatch would be spared .
The bottom of the lift would be a short flat from the West Bowl base area. Adding this lift would likely require some rethinking of the real estate/building layout slated for development in that area.
"Improving" Northwest Passage to allow direct access from the top of the shortened Flyer would be recommended.
Pay for the Ullr's Bowl lift by only having one lift to the top of Doll Peak. Move the second lift into Ullrs Bowl.

This is awesome. Clearly there could a run connecting the West Bowl to the new NEK Express lift on Ullr's Bowl. Then folks could get back to Tramside or Stateside by taking one lift.

riverc0il · Nov 9, 2012

Sick Bird Rider said:
This is awesome. Clearly there could a run connecting the West Bowl to the new NEK Express lift on Ullr's Bowl. Then folks could get back to Tramside or Stateside by taking one lift.

The only problem is that once this is a major trail pod, they'll need to tear down the DP and BBP to create a few more intermediate runs. :lol:8)

Sick Bird Rider · Nov 9, 2012

riverc0il said:
The only problem is that once this is a major trail pod, they'll need to tear down the DP and BBP to create a few more intermediate runs. :lol:8)

That's at least seventeen lifetimes away.

from_the_NEK · Nov 9, 2012

There is potential for a intermetiate run or two off the ridgeline traverse between Ullrs Dream and the West Bowl that would avoid Andre's and BBP. However, they would be pretty short on vert.

from_the_NEK · Nov 9, 2012

Let's see if this works...

http://productforums.google.com/for...zekb=31#!topic/gec-sports-hobbies/Pvnc6lqx9io

For those with Google Earth, you should be able to download a flyover movie of West Bowl that I made.

Sick Bird Rider · Nov 9, 2012

from_the_NEK said:
Let's see if this works...

http://productforums.google.com/for...zekb=31#!topic/gec-sports-hobbies/Pvnc6lqx9io

For those with Google Earth, you should be able to download a flyover movie of West Bowl that I made.

Works for me. Good work, NEK. Sure are a lot of openings in the trees up there. Be a helluva skin up.

fbrissette · Nov 9, 2012

riverc0il said:
The only problem is that once this is a major trail pod, they'll need to tear down the DP and BBP to create a few more intermediate runs. :lol:8)

That will be the day when I sell the condo and go somewhere else...

Tin Woodsman · Nov 10, 2012

riverc0il said:
Damn, from_the_NEK... you should be charging for this.

Instead of "improving" NE Passage, another trail could also be built, it might take out the top of North Glade though... like start at the top of GMB and kinda "mirror" NE Passage, ending in the same place.

I really like the looks of this! Bonus points if you can unload the Ullr's Bowl lift so that Poma Line is accessible. That might make Northway a CF, though.

I've been saying much the same thing for years, though to much skepticism. Guess I should have added a map. Not having a lift in Ullr's Bowl terminating where the Frezer does now is a massive opportunity missed. The Freezer was the worst design decision they could have made for that lift, and as with the abortion that is the Can-Am represents the most damning indictments of Stenger's lack of on-mountain planning chops. Killing The Orchard would be just the coup de grace, and would ironically be linked to the lousy Freezer decision in the first place.

Alas, that ship has almost certainly sailed. Hard to imagine them spending the money to shorten the Freezer like that.

riverc0il · Nov 10, 2012

On the flip side, one could definitely see (in the very long term) the Freezer being fixed... much as they are going to fix the Bonnie by returning a lift to Power Line in the original footprint of the lift that used to be there. AND the reintroduction of the lower mountain lift stateside. That is (soon to be) twice that the current lift structure of Jay is reverting back to one from years ago. I am sure, eventually, that there will be a third fix. It might take a few dozen years until the Freezer's life cycle is over (or a few more EB5 investors, whichever comes first).

fbrissette · Nov 10, 2012

riverc0il said:
I am sure, eventually, that there will be a third fix. It might take a few dozen years until the Freezer's life cycle is over (or a few more EB5 investors, whichever comes first).

Won't happen with EB5. EB5 investments have to result in jobs. Changing/modifying lifts has to be financed with operating revenues. Even though it is a ski resort, it is easier to finance a water park than a new lift with the EB5 program.

I have not skied Jay on a regular basis for as long as many of you, but a lift up Ull'r drainage and a mid-station below Upper goat run would very clearly benefit intermediate skiers a lot more than one new run in the Orchard.

xlr8r · Nov 10, 2012

This layout is very similar to what the original west bowl expansion plan was prior to the construction of the Freezer. The Jay Peak brochure had a map showing the new west bowl, the Green Mtn Boys double being replaced with a detachable quad ending where the double did, and an Ullr's Chair. Ullr's Chair would have gone from Ullr's runout near the end of Deer Run and Kokomo to near where the future six-pack will terminate just above Northway. I just spent an hour digging through my old brouchures and trailmaps trying to find it with no success, but luckily the map is posted at new england ski history.

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/Vermont/jaypeak.php

They probably decided to go with the cheaper route of building just the Freezer instead of replacing the GMB double and building Ullr's chair. This also shows how lazy Jay peak has been with the west bowl expansion. It was on a map in a brochure 20 YEARS AGO. get the damn thing built or forget about it. It has been nothing but talk talk talk for 20 years. When they finally got some money, they built a waterpark instead.

BenedictGomez · Nov 11, 2012

riverc0il said:
Just for the record, Timbuktu is not on the chopping block, it is the woods on skiers' right of Timbuktu that are on the chopping block. Though that would effectively change Timbuktu into a glade between trails, that would really change the feel of what is currently a boundary line glade.

Yes, but that changes the way it will ski. Long uninterrupted stanchions of continuous trees always seem to hold snow better than "ski around" glades, IMO. I'd put money on the snow-quality of Timbuktu suffering if this takes place.

riverc0il said:
The big issue here, in my mind, is that up until this point... Jay's development has not effected the skiing/riding and tree culture of Jay. This would be a major faux pas in the eyes of most Jay tree skiers. Unlike the Unchangeable campaign of last year, it would show that JPR is definitely changeable and is no longer just changing the base areas and beginner areas to accommodate increasing guest numbers... but taking it against its core tree skier base that didn't care for major resort build up but went along with it no problem since the on mountain experience remained unchanged.

Exactly. I drive a rather long way past MANY ski areas numerous times per year specifically to hit Jay Peak, and it's not for a water-park, intermediate groomers, Flyer, or the rubbery wet substance they call pizza.

Sick Bird Rider said:
In whose lifetime is that happening?

Yeah, I havent said anything about this, but on that West bowl thing, put me squarely in the, "I'll believe it when I see it camp" myself. It's tough to cut a single blade of grass in Vermont. And God forbid they find one of those Bicknell's Thrushes at 2,800 they'll probably be screwed. lol.

fbrissette said:
Won't happen with EB5. EB5 investments have to result in jobs. Changing/modifying lifts has to be financed with operating revenues. Even though it is a ski resort, it is easier to finance a water park than a new lift with the EB5 program.

Oh, I'm sure they can make it happen. Trucking jobs, cement jobs, additional lift attendees or maintenance men required for the newer lift. Who knows. The "jobs accounting" for these sorts of government programs is laughably abusable (and non-regulated).

riverc0il · Nov 11, 2012

fbrissette is correct, EB5 needs permanent jobs, not temp construction jobs and not seasonal jobs to operate the lift. Forgot about that before making my quip.

The pizza at Jay has always been pretty good for on mountain pizza, IMO. But I think we've been down that road before.

And I disagree on your assessment of the impact and conditions of Timbuk. Island glades can have some of the best snow at Jay Peak. Some of my favorite shots are trees in between trails, they hold snow extremely well. And snow conditions in Timbuk already suck balls because of high traffic, it certainly isn't going to get any worse by a trail going around its perimeter.

Sick Bird Rider · Nov 11, 2012

xlr8r said:
This layout is very similar to what the original west bowl expansion plan was prior to the construction of the Freezer. The Jay Peak brochure had a map showing the new west bowl, the Green Mtn Boys double being replaced with a detachable quad ending where the double did, and an Ullr's Chair. Ullr's Chair would have gone from Ullr's runout near the end of Deer Run and Kokomo to near where the future six-pack will terminate just above Northway. I just spent an hour digging through my old brouchures and trailmaps trying to find it with no success, but luckily the map is posted at new england ski history.

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/Vermont/jaypeak.php

They probably decided to go with the cheaper route of building just the Freezer instead of replacing the GMB double and building Ullr's chair. This also shows how lazy Jay peak has been with the west bowl expansion. It was on a map in a brochure 20 YEARS AGO. get the damn thing built or forget about it. It has been nothing but talk talk talk for 20 years. When they finally got some money, they built a waterpark instead.

Good memory and good find! I have no recollection of seeing that '93 map on a brochure. There is a is long history of "talk talk talk" at JPR. They talked about the golf course for about 20 years before it was built. Then there is the Sky Haus restaurant, which seems to finally be a dream coming true. Though I will miss the plastic chairs and rustic atmosphere.

riverc0il · Nov 11, 2012

Sick Bird Rider said:
Then there is the Sky Haus restaurant, which seems to finally be a dream coming true. Though I will miss the plastic chairs and rustic atmosphere.

You may be the only one, lol. I'd say the atmosphere is more run down than rustic. I can appreciate and get behind rustic. Sky Haus was simply let go; even less than an after thought.

kingdom-tele · Nov 11, 2012

riverc0il said:
fbrissette is correct, EB5 needs permanent jobs, not temp construction jobs and not seasonal jobs to operate the lift. Forgot about that before making my quip.

The pizza at Jay has always been pretty good for on mountain pizza, IMO. But I think we've been down that road before.

And I disagree on your assessment of the impact and conditions of Timbuk. Island glades can have some of the best snow at Jay Peak. Some of my favorite shots are trees in between trails, they hold snow extremely well. And snow conditions in Timbuk already suck balls because of high traffic, it certainly isn't going to get any worse by a trail going around its perimeter.

but it might suck more balls needing 100K + of additional skier visits so you can pay the propane bill.

they should stop f'in around and just cut all the trees out. Snow fields for everyone. A unique new england ski experience.

Nick · Nov 11, 2012

kingdom-tele said:
but it might suck more balls needing 100K + of additional skier visits so you can pay the propane bill.

they should stop f'in around and just cut all the trees out. Snow fields for everyone. A unique new england ski experience.

Where was that thread about clearing an entire peak?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

fbrissette · Nov 11, 2012

riverc0il said:
You may be the only one, lol. I'd say the atmosphere is more run down than rustic. I can appreciate and get behind rustic. Sky Haus was simply let go; even less than an after thought.

Hiked up there a couple of weeks ago. It will be nice. They put new large windows around so we should be able to enjoy the view while having a beer, waiting for the ski patrols to kick us out.

BenedictGomez · Nov 11, 2012

riverc0il said:
fbrissette is correct, EB5 needs permanent jobs, not temp construction jobs and not seasonal jobs to operate the lift.

One of the criticisms of the EB5 program is how "loose" and relatively unregulated the jobs accounting is, especially given how ostensibly job creation is the entire point of the program.

You're thinking of "direct jobs" created by Jay Peak for Jay Peak, which is entirely logical, but that's not how the job accounting works (i.e. it doesnt mean all 10 jobs per Visa are Jay Peak employees). There are "indirect jobs" that count under the program as well. Lets say the concrete company that got the job claimed they had to hire two full-time workers, they would count. I suspect if you hire two long-term permanent part-time workers at 20/hours per week you could cobble together an FTE that way too, though I'm unsure. At the end of the day, the "jobs created" bit is at the mercy of an economist projecting this stuff out, and they get very creative (and by creative, I mean very intentionally optimistic). I've seen first hand how this gets abused while working with the recent "Economic Stimulus" funds - the abuse was something you wouldn't even believe in terms of the bragging government claiming they created X number of jobs, whereas the reality is it was more like 1/4 or 1/5 X.

riverc0il · Nov 11, 2012

I've done some additional research. It appears that there are two EB5 programs (EB-5 Regional Center Pilot Program and the EB-5 Direct Program), one includes indirect jobs and one must be direct job creation. So we'd need to know which program JPR is on to come to a conclusion on that.

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