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Where are the moguls?

billski

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Provocative observations...

"Twenty years ago you could hardly find a ski area that wasn’t littered with moguls. They were everywhere. But by the mid-’90s, moguls were on the way to extinction...Many blame the advent of shaped skis, but the decline began before then. No, the true culprit was excessive grooming, made possible by the invention and widespread adoption of the power tiller.
...

Granted, there were other factors in the demise of moguls as well. Nearly a third of the skiing participants made their way to single planks. Then came terrain parks. And there was the proliferation of shaped skis.
...
The main cause, though, was an industry-wide desire to cater to a perceived demand from our guests. We decided that skiers wanted more corduroy, and we delivered it.
...
With the advent of the power tiller and the winch replacing the more cumbersome grooming implements of the past, we began grooming most (if not all) of the viable mogul terrain. What the ski industry took away was the option to learn mogul skiing at all, leading to the claim that no one even wants to ski moguls.
...
Now, in 2014, most bump skiers are 40+ year-old “leftovers" from the mogul heyday of the ’80s and early ’90s. Many younger skiers can’t link turns on the flats, let alone in the bumps, because they rarely ski outside the park. Many mountains now groom steeper terrain, leaving only the most difficult trails (if any) with moguls.
...
But there are a few places that stand out from crowd: Winter Park's Mary Jane in Colorado, Sugarbush, Mad River Glen, and Killington in Vermont, and Ski Sundown in Connecticut, just to name some standouts. At those mountains, you can find moguls on low-angle runs, intermediate runs, advanced runs, and expert runs. This is called progression, and it is absolutely necessary to the survival of the sport.

More
http://www.saminfo.com/article/speakout-where-are-all-moguls
 

ScottySkis

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For average people who ski or snowboarding a few times in winter like my cousin and his GF definitely do not want moguls. They wouldn't go to Platty a few months ago to I guarantee them that there be groomed stuff on blue and greens. I think there the typical people the resorts are talking about.
 

Edd

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I ski mostly northern NH and Maine. Bretton Woods aside, beginner/intermediate bumps are hard to find. They do pop up, but are not actively maintained. I'd like to see that change but I'm not holding my breath.
 

Abominable

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Sort of interesting to compare the decline in moguls with the growth of manicured on-map glades though. I'd figure they'd appeal to the same type of skier.

I've got to check out Sundown this spring.
 

VTKilarney

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Another thread mentioned that the average skier age has gone up by about 6 years. That's got to be a factor. Whatever the cause, apparently the author cannot accept the law of supply and demand.
 

VTKilarney

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From the article:
"However, I also love moguls and other natural elements of skiing (because that’s what moguls are: the natural byproduct of skier traffic)."

Huh? This guy is seriously arguing that moguls are "natural"? His argument has all of the sophistication of suggesting that plastic surfaces are "natural" because a bunch of people in lab coats manipulated petroleum.

Yet most of this “demand” for groomers was simply a perceived demand from a small, never-satisfied group of skiers.

This guy is just absurd. If you go to a place like Killington, where skiers have a choice, does he really expect us to believe that only a small number of skiers prefer groomers? And keep in mind that Killington is more likely to attract bump skiers than most other mountains!

The truth is thus: A minority of skiers prefer to spend most of their time on non-groomed terrain. Moguls were the rage 20 years ago. Tastes have now changed to terrain parks and glades. Those would-be-mogul skiers are still out there, their preferences just changed. But if you prefer the glades or terrain parks, you're not a true skier according to this guy. Man, does he seem bitter and old!
 
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St. Bear

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From the article:
"However, I also love moguls and other natural elements of skiing (because that’s what moguls are: the natural byproduct of skier traffic)."

Huh? This guy is seriously arguing that moguls are "natural"? His argument has all of the sophistication of suggesting that plastic surfaces are "natural" because a bunch of people in lab coats manipulated petroleum.

Yet most of this “demand” for groomers was simply a perceived demand from a small, never-satisfied group of skiers.

This guy is just absurd. If you go to a place like Killington, where skiers have a choice, does he really expect us to believe that only a small number of skiers prefer groomers? And keep in mind that Killington is more likely to attract bump skiers than most other mountains!

The truth is thus: A minority of skiers prefer to spend most of their time on non-groomed terrain. Moguls were the rage 20 years ago. Tastes have now changed to terrain parks and glades. Those would-be-mogul skiers are still out there, their preferences just changed. But if you prefer the glades or terrain parks, you're not a true skier according to this guy. Man, does he seem bitter and old!

We've talked about this article before.
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/127333-Where-are-all-the-moguls

BMM is an incredibly knowledgeable and valuable member of this forum. And moguls are absolutely a natural by product of high skier traffic.
 

BushMogulMaster

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From the article:
"However, I also love moguls and other natural elements of skiing (because that’s what moguls are: the natural byproduct of skier traffic)."

Huh? This guy is seriously arguing that moguls are "natural"? His argument has all of the sophistication of suggesting that plastic surfaces are "natural" because a bunch of people in lab coats manipulated petroleum.

Yet most of this “demand” for groomers was simply a perceived demand from a small, never-satisfied group of skiers.

This guy is just absurd. If you go to a place like Killington, where skiers have a choice, does he really expect us to believe that only a small number of skiers prefer groomers? And keep in mind that Killington is more likely to attract bump skiers than most other mountains!

The truth is thus: A minority of skiers prefer to spend most of their time on non-groomed terrain. Moguls were the rage 20 years ago. Tastes have now changed to terrain parks and glades. Those would-be-mogul skiers are still out there, their preferences just changed. But if you prefer the glades or terrain parks, you're not a true skier according to this guy. Man, does he seem bitter and old!

Hi! Nice to meet you, too! I'm neither bitter, nor old. But I'd be glad to ski with you anytime.

On a more serious note, if you'll go back and read the linked article, I think you'll see that you've missed the point (namely, that skiers no longer choose moguls over groomed terrain because the idea of progression is extinct in mogul terrain, and thus skiers have no way of entering the sport at a reasonable level...).
 
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BushMogulMaster

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How much of a base does it take for Moguls vs Cord? Lots more for Moguls, I think it comes down to bottom line. Deisel fuel used to be cheap now $4+.

:dontknow: Cord creation consumes a lot more diesel than allowing moguls to form (about 35-45 gallons per 8 hour shift, per cat... and that's if the operator is being conscious of his fuel consumption). As a general "industry standard", the cost to operate one snowcat for one hour is $100 to $150 (inclusive of machine depreciation, maintenance, wages, fuel, etc.). Grooming ain't cheap. In fact, one machine for one shift is probably worth more than a season pass to most areas!!!
 
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Savemeasammy

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Huh? This guy is seriously arguing that moguls are "natural"? His argument has all of the sophistication of suggesting that plastic surfaces are "natural" because a bunch of people in lab coats manipulated petroleum.

For real? You do understand how moguls form, do you not? Skiers/riders turn over and over again in the same spot and moguls form. If every trail on the hill with some degree of pitch were left ungroomed, they would all be bump runs (although the quality would be in question!).

BTW BMM, most mogul skiers are age 40+... I resemble that remark!


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VTKilarney

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You do understand how moguls form, do you not? Skiers/riders turn over and over again in the same spot and moguls form.

That was my point. They are the product of humans, not nature.

Had I known that the author was a member here I would have been less cranky, so my apologies!
 

jack97

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:dontknow: Cord creation consumes a lot more diesel than allowing moguls to form (about 35-45 gallons per 8 hour shift, per cat... and that's if the operator is being conscious of his fuel consumption). As a general "industry standard", the cost to operate one snowcat for one hour is $100 to $150 (inclusive of machine depreciation, maintenance, wages, fuel, etc.). Grooming ain't cheap. In fact, one machine for one shift is probably worth more than a season pass to most areas!!!

thanks! bmm, great data. IMO, presently, a place is in trouble when the start leaving trails alone. this happened over at ragged when the construction brothers got into money trouble, they left some major trails ungroomed. eventually after two or three seasons they had to sell the place.
 

Savemeasammy

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That was my point. They are the product of humans, not nature.

Had I known that the author was a member here I would have been less cranky, so my apologies!

Fair enough. The way I see it is that grooming is "unnatural". Trails that are left natural develop bumps - unless they have next to no traffic!


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JohnQ

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I can't tell you how many complaints I heard at Mount Snow on Friday because of the "bumps" being formed on the main face. They ranged from "boy am I tired, I hate it when it gets like this" to "it's terrible out there, they need to groom." And it wasn't just a few folks.

These were the easy bumps. 20" of snow pushed together into interesting terrain. It required work, it required balance, and mistakes got punished (though with the soft snow it doesn't hurt much at all). To me, the best kind of skiing. People were presented with some of the best conditions of the season and a chance to learn bumps on shallow terrain but could only complain. I honestly don't get it. Carving turns is fun, but I don't want to do it the whole weekend.

Granted, I'm painting with a broad brush here, folks on the north face were nothing but smiles. But even friends of mine were unhappy. Maybe it's that I'm one of those who grew up skiing in the 70s and 80s where bumps were a measure of your skill and I'm getting grouchy.
 

WWF-VT

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BTW BMM, most mogul skiers are age 40+... I resemble that remark!

My 15 year old son gets bored to death on groomers and prefers to ski on natural snow/mogul trails whenever he can. There are plenty of skiers under age 40 in the Mad River Valley that grow up skiing diverse terrain which includes lots of mogul runs.
 

St. Bear

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I can't tell you how many complaints I heard at Mount Snow on Friday because of the "bumps" being formed on the main face. They ranged from "boy am I tired, I hate it when it gets like this" to "it's terrible out there, they need to groom." And it wasn't just a few folks.

These were the easy bumps. 20" of snow pushed together into interesting terrain. It required work, it required balance, and mistakes got punished (though with the soft snow it doesn't hurt much at all). To me, the best kind of skiing. People were presented with some of the best conditions of the season and a chance to learn bumps on shallow terrain but could only complain. I honestly don't get it. Carving turns is fun, but I don't want to do it the whole weekend.

Granted, I'm painting with a broad brush here, folks on the north face were nothing but smiles. But even friends of mine were unhappy. Maybe it's that I'm one of those who grew up skiing in the 70s and 80s where bumps were a measure of your skill and I'm getting grouchy.

2 things:

1) The casual, few times a year skier, doesn't want to be reminded how bad he is. Bumps are hard, and like you said, they punish mistakes. If you ski 2-4 times a year, you're not going to get enough practice to get better on bumps, so they're just a constant reminder of how "not good" you are.

2) More generally, people don't want to push themselves to be better, especially if it's something physical in nature. I found this out when I worked as a personal trainer, but it's also true in most things in life. If people don't immediately understand an electronic device, then they throw up their hands and exclaim that it's too complicated. It takes a special kind of idiot to continually put themselves in danger and harms way, and fail time and time again, just to learn how to slide around obstacles on a snowy slope better.
 
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