What the heck is going on at Magic?

deadheadskier · Aug 29, 2015

steamboat1 said:
It'll be hard to increase skier visits if they don't open by Thanksgiving, all their competition is usually. Typically they don't open until just before Christmas. Thanksgiving weekend & & the first few weekends before Christmas see quite a bit of business at other areas when weather cooperates. Same thing on the other end. Closing in the middle of March doesn't help increase skier visits either, especially when weather cooperates late season. Then there's the fact they're only open four days a week excluding holiday weeks except for the rare powder days. Even the rare powder days how much business can they expect when people don't know if they'll be open or not until the snow is on the ground? I like Magic, really I do, but they have a tough nut to crack. Base elevation & the fact they're slightly out of the snow belt is not there friend either. I wish them luck. It's got nothing to do with getting it or not.

They were open until April 18th this year........

MMP · Aug 29, 2015

steamboat1 said:
It'll be hard to increase skier visits if they don't open by Thanksgiving, all their competition is usually. Typically they don't open until just before Christmas. Thanksgiving weekend & & the first few weekends before Christmas see quite a bit of business at other areas when weather cooperates. Same thing on the other end. Closing in the middle of March doesn't help increase skier visits either, especially when weather cooperates late season. Then there's the fact they're only open four days a week excluding holiday weeks except for the rare powder days. Even the rare powder days how much business can they expect when people don't know if they'll be open or not until the snow is on the ground? I like Magic, really I do, but they have a tough nut to crack. Base elevation & the fact they're slightly out of the snow belt is not there friend either. I wish them luck. It's got nothing to do with getting it or not.

You're wrong.

Snow belt. Good one.

marcski · Aug 29, 2015

steamboat1 said:
It'll be hard to increase skier visits if they don't open by Thanksgiving, all their competition is usually. Typically they don't open until just before Christmas. Thanksgiving weekend & & the first few weekends before Christmas see quite a bit of business at other areas when weather cooperates. Same thing on the other end. Closing in the middle of March doesn't help increase skier visits either, especially when weather cooperates late season. Then there's the fact they're only open four days a week excluding holiday weeks except for the rare powder days. Even the rare powder days how much business can they expect when people don't know if they'll be open or not until the snow is on the ground? I like Magic, really I do, but they have a tough nut to crack. Base elevation & the fact they're slightly out of the snow belt is not there friend either. I wish them luck. It's got nothing to do with getting it or not.

I don't agree. Look at Plattekill, which is probably the closest analogy there is for Magic. Same general feel and vibe. Great terrain and no crowds. Both rely on natural snow, which for their faithful is part of the allure. (Personally, I'd much rather ski narrow, old school trails with soft snow and some rocks and brambles to ski around than some hard packed, crowded highway that gets skied off by noon). Platty is never open on Turkey day, is only open Fri-Sun (with occasional thursdays and vacation weeks). They are family owned and are in the black. It was not the product or biz model, it was most definitely the management.

deadheadskier · Aug 29, 2015

marcski said:
I don't agree. Look at Plattekill, which is probably the closest analogy there is for Magic. Same general feel and vibe. Great terrain and no crowds. Both rely on natural snow, which for their faithful is part of the allure. (Personally, I'd much rather ski narrow, old school trails with soft snow and some rocks and brambles to ski around than some hard packed, crowded highway that gets skied off by noon). Platty is never open on Turkey day, is only open Fri-Sun (with occasional thursdays and vacation weeks). They are family owned and are in the black. It was not the product or biz model, it was most definitely the management.

Or Pico......

Pico is not as old school as Magic or Plattekill obviously, but the operation schedule and lack of snowmaking is pretty similar.

steamboat1 · Aug 29, 2015

Plattekill has summer mountain biking which is quite popular from what I've heard. Might even be more popular than there winter activities. I'm sure that contributes to their bottom line. I guess most of you forget that Pico went Chapter 7 in 1997. If not for it's purchase by Killington for the sewer line for the Grand Hotel it very well might be still closed today. Who's to say whether Pico turns a profit or not today, POWDR doesn't release that information. Like I said I wish Magic luck.

marcski · Aug 29, 2015

steamboat1 said:
Plattekill has summer mountain biking which is quite popular from what I've heard. Might even be more popular than there winter activities. I'm sure that contributes to their bottom line. I guess most of you forget that Pico went Chapter 7 in 1997. If not for it's purchase by Killington for the sewer line for the Grand Hotel it very well might be still closed today. Who's to say whether Pico turns a profit or not today, POWDR doesn't release that information. Like I said I wish Magic luck.

Once again you're completely wrong. While mt. Biking is popular at Platty, revenues come nowhere close to ski revenues. This is based on my many conversations with mgt over the years. Platty makes money because it's well managed and they produce a great product day in and day out throghout the ski season. Like other's have said about Magic in this thread, once people try it, they are sold and come back.

BodhiMax · Aug 30, 2015

marcski said:
Once again you're completely wrong. While mt. Biking is popular at Platty, revenues come nowhere close to ski revenues. This is based on my many conversations with mgt over the years. Platty makes money because it's well managed and they produce a great product day in and day out throghout the ski season. Like other's have said about Magic in this thread, once people try it, they are sold and come back.

While good management certainly helps, the one thing Magic really needs is money. If they improve the snowmaking and overall appearance, and make sure that both lifts that run regularly, they should be able to pull in a respectable share of the southern VT ski crowd. I hope the new ownership has some significant financial backing, but the delay on this purchase and the lack of news about investment and plans is not particularly reassuring.

Sorcerer · Aug 30, 2015

BodhiMax said:
While good management certainly helps, the one thing Magic really needs is money. If they improve the snowmaking and overall appearance, and make sure that both lifts that run regularly, they should be able to pull in a respectable share of the southern VT ski crowd. I hope the new ownership has some significant financial backing, but the delay on this purchase and the lack of news about investment and plans is not particularly reassuring.

That's very true.
They also need to do a lot of marketing - it takes money to make money is still true. There are too many people, even locally, I hate to say Stratton but also in Manchester, who ask if Magic is open, do they make snow, do they groom and, I heard the lifts are always breaking down-it only takes one time when only one lift is running.

Some good PR would help to bring a good number of people, especially those with children who don't like people scaring their children by ski too close and too fast; and those who don't like paying a fortune for lifts, food and crowds as well as those seeking a challenge.

Do Work · Aug 30, 2015

BodhiMax said:
While good management certainly helps, the one thing Magic really needs is money. If they improve the snowmaking and overall appearance, and make sure that both lifts that run reglarly, they should be able to pull in a respectable share of the southern VT ski crowd. I hope the new ownership has some significant financial backing, but the delay on this purchase and the lack of news about investment and plans is not particularly reassuring.

Trust me, the time it has taken to do the paperwork has nothing to do with the amount of money they have. I'd point that finger at the old owner who just likes owning a mountain. They don't even need a ton of money, they just need to be smart, communicative and well organized.

I guess I just don't see the point of wild speculation based in assumption. You guys don't really know any of this you're just imagining up what you think the deal is.

All I can really tell you is that Magic is *this* close to making money and IMO as long as they handle the very basics with tact and attention they will begin to attract a lot more people.

gmcunni · Aug 30, 2015

Do Work said:
This is generally referred to as the attitude of those who "don't get it". And don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying... But come ski here when the snow is good and there is no going back. The terrain, the trees, the snow, the people, the vibe... I wouldn't go to Strappon of you paid me. I don't like it there at all . Believe it or not a lot of people are dissatisfied by the blah, crowded and steamrolled experience they're getting for their insane expenditure elsewhere. I hate standing in line and I hate skiing in a crowd even more. Magic is for real skiers who hate the bullshit that comes with major resorts and don't give a damn about shopping at boutiques or overpriced food and fake scenesters. They just want to ski the best terrain in SoVT and be in a community of like-minded individuals.

By all means if you like those "other mountains" then totally go there. I won't be mad at you. I don't prefer them though, and that's putting it as nicely as I can. For those who appreciate a simplistic, raw advanced skiing experience there is no alternative in Southern Vermont.

The points you raise are valid, but they vaporize once you ski here and see what it's really all about. I respect your want to ask, but trust me when I say Magic is a different planet than the other area offerings.

Sounds like the Skiing version of "Field of Dreams"... Build it and they will come :spread:

For those who appreciate a simplistic, raw advanced skiing experience there is no alternative in Southern Vermont.

this really cuts to what i was asking - How big is this market? Big enough for Magic to be successful? I think there is a large percentage of skiers who don't need (want) the "raw advanced skiing experience" (as evident with the seemingly growing success of the Hermitage Club and yearly skier visit increases at Okemo)

i'd be interested to see their 1-5-10 year plan, should the new owners share it with the public. if Magic can double their skier visits, would that equate to success? if they could double their visits, where would those people stay & eat? are they commuting from their homes near other mountains?

steamboat1 · Aug 30, 2015

gmcunni said:
if Magic can double their skier visits, would that equate to success? if they could double their visits, where would those people stay & eat? are they commuting from their homes near other mountains?

I think a pretty large percentage of people who ski southern VT. are day trippers who don't require lodging. I even see a lot of day trippers an hour north at Killington. While Magic is limited with lodging options in town there is ample lodging options a short drive away in Manchester. Bromley has even less options with only one small on mountain hotel & zero on mountain condo development which Magic has. Yes Bromley is closer to Manchester but not by a lot. I don't think lodging & food options are a limiting factor for Magic.

slatham · Aug 30, 2015

Steamboat, FYI Bromley has a significant condo development in Bromley Village just to lookers left of the Mountian. 18 home owners associations, and ours has 34 units. And there is a significant contingent who make Magic their second Mountian and would visit more if there were more reliable lifts and a few more trails open during non-natural snow times.

steamboat1 · Aug 30, 2015

marcski said:
Once again you're completely wrong. While mt. Biking is popular at Platty, revenues come nowhere close to ski revenues. This is based on my many conversations with mgt over the years.

Summer revenues might not be close to winter revenues (I don't know) but regardless it is still revenue. Look at the money Killington spent this year in an attempt to increase summer revenue. I'm sure their expectations for summer revenue doesn't come anywhere near their expectations for winter revenue but it is still significant enough to warrant a hefty investment in their managements opinion.

steamboat1 · Aug 30, 2015

slatham said:
Steamboat, FYI Bromley has a significant condo development in Bromley Village just to lookers left of the Mountian. 18 home owners associations, and ours has 34 units. And there is a significant contingent who make Magic their second Mountian and would visit more if there were more reliable lifts and a few more trails open during non-natural snow times.

I didn't realize that. I rarely go up the lifts on that side & didn't know it was there. I only knew about what was visible from the base.

Do Work · Aug 30, 2015

deadheadskier said:
They were open until April 18th this year........

Don't worry, 'Ol Steamy isn't one to let facts or reality get in the way of what conclusions he's decided to arrive at haha

thetrailboss · Aug 30, 2015

Why does Magic, in particular, evoke such strong emotions from folks?

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone

ALLSKIING · Aug 30, 2015

thetrailboss said:
Why does Magic, in particular, evoke such strong emotions from folks?

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone

Probably because it's rare like MRG.

steamboat1 · Aug 30, 2015

Do Work said:
Don't worry, 'Ol Steamy isn't one to let facts or reality get in the way of what conclusions he's decided to arrive at haha

Was I wrong saying Magic usually doesn't open until Christmas while it's nearby competition is usually open before Thanksgiving? That's a lot of business they are giving up. Last year was an exceptional year for all VT. ski areas because of the prolonged cold. A majority of areas stayed open well into April. This is not the norm though. Besides quite a few ski areas close mid April whether there is still snow or not. Pico & Mt Ellen usually wrap it up at the end of March (they did stay open one additional weekend last year). Stratton, Okemo, Stowe close mid April regardless, sometimes with 100% coverage still. This is because of lack of business. Magic loses more business by not opening early than they gain by staying open late. This is fact. I've skied both Okemo & Killington in November & there were sizable crowds everytime.

gmcunni · Aug 30, 2015

steamboat1 said:
I think a pretty large percentage of people who ski southern VT. are day trippers who don't require lodging.

that's me. not sure how large a percentage it is but it is a piece of the market. Using traffic on 91 as a data point.. Friday nights - crazy headed north. Sunday nights - crazy headed south = Weekend traffic for people who have a place to stay (own,rent, hotel, etc)

traffic Saturday AM northbound, Saturday PM southbound, Sunday AM North - there is no traffic, as i can a test first hand.

Certainly not the only point to consider but an easy one.

I am happy to day trip to SVT 1 day on a weekend, not doing it 2x (up and back + up and back) so i'll need a place to stay that is affordable and has stuff to do (i'm very fortunate to have a friend with a house near MT Snow who's always welcoming of a visitor).

i'm a little south, in S CT so perhaps if it was 2 hours each way vs 3 i'd feel differently.

skithetrees · Aug 30, 2015

honest question - do ski areas make money or does real estate make money? I was always under the impression that most mountains just about break even on ski operations and make their real money on real estate. With no real estate of its own, that would be tough for magic. Magics lodging options are pretty bad. Trail side has a handful of units, some stuff in magic circle and then the inn at magic or whatever it is called now. We have owned at Magic for over 30 years and that is just the truth. Manchester is just so far away, most people who can pay to stay there would probably rather ski bromley or Stratton anyway, they have to drive by at least one of them anyway. I certainly don't want to Stratton magic, but would something like Jackson hole be a realistic option? Four seasons obviously won't be stepping up to the plate soon, but something nicer than the current options would be nice. At one time there was a half baked plan to build a hotel where the maintenance building is. Obviously, none of that will happen at a struggling mountain. But long term, if magic is to succeed, I think it will need to. At least get dostals open again and make some nice rooms there.

What the heck is going on at Magic?

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