What the heck is going on at Magic?

skithetrees · Aug 30, 2015

steamboat1 said:
Was I wrong saying Magic usually doesn't open until Christmas while it's nearby competition is usually open before Thanksgiving? That's a lot of business they are giving up. Last year was an exceptional year for all VT. ski areas because of the prolonged cold. A majority of areas stayed open well into April. This is not the norm though. Besides quite a few ski areas close mid April whether there is still snow or not. Pico & Mt Ellen usually wrap it up at the end of March (they did stay open one additional weekend last year). Stratton, Okemo, Stowe close mid April regardless, sometimes with 100% coverage still. This is because of lack of business. Magic loses more business by not opening early than they gain by staying open late. This is fact. I've skied both Okemo & Killington in November & there were sizable crowds everytime.

I think they should shoot to open second week of December. I seriously doubt anyone makes money before that. Plus, they just don't have the money to make the snow. I think they would be better served trying to have a bunch of trails open for Christmas than maintaining one or two from thanksgiving to the holidays.

steamboat1 · Aug 30, 2015

skithetrees said:
I think they should shoot to open second week of December. I seriously doubt anyone makes money before that. Plus, they just don't have the money to make the snow. I think they would be better served trying to have a bunch of trails open for Christmas than maintaining one or two from thanksgiving to the holidays.

How many trails do they have open for the Christmas holiday? Not many if I recall correctly.

slatham · Aug 30, 2015

Opening earlier in December isn't about the money made over those weekends. It's about 1) advertising that you are open (which for Magic is big) and 2) most importantly, getting an early start to putting snow down so the Christmas break has more than 1 trail! That is the key - having several options, ideally one for each ability, over Crhistmas regardless of the amount of natural snow. Doing this would also set up MLK weekend. Both of the last two seasons, which saw "record" skier visits (for recent times anyway), did so with VERY limited Christmas and MLK coverage. This alone could make the difference.

gmcunni · Aug 30, 2015

thetrailboss said:
Why does Magic, in particular, evoke such strong emotions from folks?

it is cult like!! anything not overtly positive about the mountain is deemed as a negative attack by some.

"i had a bad day skiing @ Magic" - you don't know where to ski. trees are were the goods are, obviously you are doing it wrong

"my food was bad and the service was slow" - why would you stop for food during a ski day? hard core skiers have a hearty breakfast, ski from first to last chair and then get drunk at the bar. perhaps okemo is your type of mountain

"sucked getting suck on the lift for 2 hours today" - the bar was hopping, we had a great time. you missed out, too bad.

"with only 1 chair and great conditions the line was 45 minutes long today" - you aren't skiing hard enough, you need that 45 minutes to recover. hit the bar during peak times rather than wait around, don't be a noob.

edit - immediately following the "you don't know what you are doing" you will then be invited to join them for personal guided tour to ensure your next visit is better.

jrmagic · Aug 30, 2015

gmcunni said:
it is cult like!! anything not overtly positive about the mountain is deemed as a negative attack by some.

"i had a bad day skiing @ Magic" - you don't know where to ski. trees are were the goods are, obviously you are doing it wrong

"my food was bad and the service was slow" - why would you stop for food during a ski day? hard core skiers have a hearty breakfast, ski from first to last chair and then get drunk at the bar. perhaps okemo is your type of mountain

"sucked getting suck on the lift for 2 hours today" - the bar was hopping, we had a great time. you missed out, too bad.

"with only 1 chair and great conditions the line was 45 minutes long today" - you aren't skiing hard enough, you need that 45 minutes to recover. hit the bar during peak times rather than wait around, don't be a noob.

edit - immediately following the "you don't know what you are doing" you will then be invited to join them for personal guided tour to ensure your next visit is better.

I suppose this is true for some. I try to be realistic about my "homerism" and not be over the top with my exuberance when speaking to those not as familiar but for many of us, that is exsctly how we look at it. Would we like things better and more reliable? Absolutely. However, even with the negative events captured in your post, I still love the place and choose to ski there every week because of the terrain, the vibe and the people. It's the overall experience that many of us find so special.

JoeB-Z · Aug 30, 2015

Do Work said:
This is generally referred to as the attitude of those who "don't get it". And don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying... But come ski here when the snow is good and there is no going back. The terrain, the trees, the snow, the people, the vibe... I wouldn't go to Strappon of you paid me. I don't like it there at all . Believe it or not a lot of people are dissatisfied by the blah, crowded and steamrolled experience they're getting for their insane expenditure elsewhere. I hate standing in line and I hate skiing in a crowd even more. Magic is for real skiers who hate the bullshit that comes with major resorts and don't give a damn about shopping at boutiques or overpriced food and fake scenesters. They just want to ski the best terrain in SoVT and be in a community of like-minded individuals.

By all means if you like those "other mountains" then totally go there. I won't be mad at you. I don't prefer them though, and that's putting it as nicely as I can. For those who appreciate a simplistic, raw advanced skiing experience there is no alternative in Southern Vermont.

The points you raise are valid, but they vaporize once you ski here and see what it's really all about. I respect your want to ask, but trust me when I say Magic is a different planet than the other area offerings.

Lets even get past good snow. I would rather pick through rocks on Magic than ski wonderful fake snow on blah slopes with crowds elsewhere. And in recent times the artificial snow on Talisman has been a godsend. And they can do it on Sorcerer too if they have the money. Two lifts, a bit more snow making and all is well. By the way, I will ski early season at Okemo and it is great for conditioning and I bought a Beast pass for the spring at Killington. It all makes for a great season.

skithetrees · Aug 30, 2015

JoeB-Z said:
Lets even get past good snow. I would rather pick through rocks on Magic than ski wonderful fake snow on blah slopes with crowds elsewhere. And in recent times the artificial snow on Talisman has been a godsend. And they can do it on Sorcerer too if they have the money. Two lifts, a bit more snow making and all is well. By the way, I will ski early season at Okemo and it is great for conditioning and I bought a Beast pass for the spring at Killington. It all makes for a great season.

Your last point is a good one. I think pretty much the only people that ski early season at magic are pass holders. For most of the people, ski info just one trail isn't worth it. All the more reason to wait until mid-December and lure in ticket purchases.

MadMadWorld · Aug 30, 2015

Most of the magic folks I have met will be the first to admit when things aren't working or poor decisions were made but they are so invested into the mountain and culture that they look past it. Most people can't understand that type of loyalty and can't relate. I love Magic but I don't have that same dedication....yet. But I can appreciate folks that do.

Harvey · Aug 30, 2015

marcski said:
Once again you're completely wrong. While mt. Biking is popular at Platty, revenues come nowhere close to ski revenues. This is based on my many conversations with mgt over the years. Platty makes money because it's well managed and they produce a great product day in and day out throughout the ski season.

Yes.

Biking at Plattekill is just about revenue neutral. One of it's appeals for management is that biking helps the mountain hold on to good people by employing them for more of the year.

MTB also gives Plattekill are real branding boost. It's a renowned destination and having Aaron Gwin show up and rock it, keeps your name top of mind.

Do Work · Aug 30, 2015

JoeB-Z said:
Lets even get past good snow. I would rather pick through rocks on Magic than ski wonderful fake snow on blah slopes with crowds elsewhere. And in recent times the artificial snow on Talisman has been a godsend. And they can do it on Sorcerer too if they have the money. Two lifts, a bit more snow making and all is well. By the way, I will ski early season at Okemo and it is great for conditioning and I bought a Beast pass for the spring at Killington. It all makes for a great season.

Well I couldn't agree more but that's hardly a selling point to many and lots of people would think you're crazy for suggesting Upper Magician when the rocks are still out. I love that kind of adventure skiing. I am right there with you though- fix the black, nail down a solid snowmaking schedule and then just hammer down on the communication and marketing.

Patrol is in for a nice shakeup, ski school is about to get a major breath of fresh air and as you noted it may not be economically feasible to out-killington K-mart for the early season but once it's filled in it's a no-brainer. People want to ski Magic, but in years last it has simply been mismanaged to the point of inconvenience.

Also yes it can get frustrating when people are just so pleased with themselves for lauding the impossibility of Magic's success. To answer the above question, Magic skiers are passionate because it's more family than anything. Most have been around long enough to have been through some real trying times. Having been theology them though, it's extremely encouraging to see how far the place has come. It makes me wonder if the naysayers know how far it's actually come since the Eichholtz's reign just a few years ago... To say that miracles have happened is an understatement. The mountain finally has solid footing- they have 0 debt, new investors, the snowmaking system actually works on the vast majority of trails, there are more trees to ski every year and grooming is literally every bit as good as other area mountains. Certainly there is a lot of room for improvement but for people to expect it to be Bromley tomorrow just REEKS of internetfluenza. Of course they need things to happen but the fact of the matter remains thus- Magic has momentum, a dedicated base of skiers and a killer- if flawed- reputation that is being rapidly improved.

Basically I don't need them to build Rome in a day, I just need them to keep making incremental improvements every season, and keep giving skiers more and more reasons to come back. I'm sure many will disagree with me but hey... That's what the internet is for.

JoeB-Z · Aug 30, 2015

Do Work said:
Well I couldn't agree more but that's hardly a selling point to many and lots of people would think you're crazy for suggesting Upper Magician when the rocks are still out. I love that kind of adventure skiing. I am right there with you though- fix the black, nail down a solid snowmaking schedule and then just hammer down on the communication and marketing.

Patrol is in for a nice shakeup, ski school is about to get a major breath of fresh air and as you noted it may not be economically feasible to out-killington K-mart for the early season but once it's filled in it's a no-brainer. People want to ski Magic, but in years last it has simply been mismanaged to the point of inconvenience.

Also yes it can get frustrating when people are just so pleased with themselves for lauding the impossibility of Magic's success. To answer the above question, Magic skiers are passionate because it's more family than anything. Most have been around long enough to have been through some real trying times. Having been theology them though, it's extremely encouraging to see how far the place has come. It makes me wonder if the naysayers know how far it's actually come since the Eichholtz's reign just a few years ago... To say that miracles have happened is an understatement. The mountain finally has solid footing- they have 0 debt, new investors, the snowmaking system actually works on the vast majority of trails, there are more trees to ski every year and grooming is literally every bit as good as other area mountains. Certainly there is a lot of room for improvement but for people to expect it to be Bromley tomorrow just REEKS of internetfluenza. Of course they need things to happen but the fact of the matter remains thus- Magic has momentum, a dedicated base of skiers and a killer- if flawed- reputation that is being rapidly improved.

Basically I don't need them to build Rome in a day, I just need them to keep making incremental improvements every season, and keep giving skiers more and more reasons to come back. I'm sure many will disagree with me but hey... That's what the internet is for.

Thanks for the complement but I ski Upper Magician twice a year and about the same for Red Line! I am talking about Black Line and rocks! Agree with all points 100%. I do ski Gondolf all the time, ropes or not and the rocks at the bottom are a price of admission. Magic is heaven on earth when it works. It just needs to work more often.

cdskier · Aug 30, 2015

If I skied S VT, Magic sounds like exactly the type of place that I would love. A co-worker of mine did a 3 day weekend in S VT last winter and skied Stratton, Mt Snow, and Magic. She talked a lot about how much she really enjoyed skiing at Magic. I think she talked more about Magic than the other 2 combined (and she is hardly the "hardcore" skier type). So I think that does go to show a bit that once people ski there they tend to enjoy it.

gmcunni · Aug 31, 2015

cdskier said:
If I skied S VT, Magic sounds like exactly the type of place that I would love. A co-worker of mine did a 3 day weekend in S VT last winter and skied Stratton, Mt Snow, and Magic. She talked a lot about how much she really enjoyed skiing at Magic. I think she talked more about Magic than the other 2 combined (and she is hardly the "hardcore" skier type). So I think that does go to show a bit that once people ski there they tend to enjoy it.

where do you ski and what would it take for you to give S VT a try? magic wants your business. sounds like the word of mouth from your co-worker, while positive and interesting, isn't enough to get you to try it.

cdskier · Aug 31, 2015

gmcunni said:
where do you ski and what would it take for you to give S VT a try? magic wants your business. sounds like the word of mouth from your co-worker, while positive and interesting, isn't enough to get you to try it.

I ski Sugarbush. I have a condo there and a season pass there. So for me personally in my situation, there's not much Magic can do to get me as a regular customer.

RustyGroomer · Aug 31, 2015

MEtoVTSkier said:
I've never needed a 5 gallon can of saw gas in the woods with me while logging, that stays on the pickup. A 1.25 gallon can maybe.... :grin::grin:

Ok, 5 gallon exaggeration. The point is us volunteers can do everything we need with simple hand tools & do it easier & SAFER. Show up & you guys will see how it works.

Good gloves & strong hands even go along way. For me, I really just worry about what is lurking underneath.

Do Work · Aug 31, 2015

cdskier said:
If I skied S VT, Magic sounds like exactly the type of place that I would love. A co-worker of mine did a 3 day weekend in S VT last winter and skied Stratton, Mt Snow, and Magic. She talked a lot about how much she really enjoyed skiing at Magic. I think she talked more about Magic than the other 2 combined (and she is hardly the "hardcore" skier type). So I think that does go to show a bit that once people ski there they tend to enjoy it.

We get a ton of that too. See, one of the biggest and most underrated advantages to skiing at Magic is the limited uphill capacity. If there's any kind of crowd it's at the bottom and not the top. That means you are almost guaranteed to not be skiing down in a crowd, and that is a huge plus to people who are still working on building their confidence level. It seems as though half the battle these days is not being hit from behind by someone who is out of control, or waiting for a break in the traffic to even start skiing. Even if people are technically skiing above their comfort level, they can work through it at their own pace and without feeling like they're about to get smoked and that is severely underrated these days. It takes a whole extra dimension of fear right out of the equation. Every time I go to those other places I'm just blown away at how many people are on every trail at any given moment . I really hate that. It's hard to find places where you can go to get away and actually BE away. At Magic you really get a sense that you are in Vermont. Strat has earned the nickname "The Upper Upper West Side" for a reason- it's all the people that left the city... To sit in traffic with both on the highways AND in the liftline again on the hill. To me that really isn't getting away at all but some people are really into that sort of thing I guess.

VTKilarney · Aug 31, 2015

I'm shocked at the 20k skier visit number. For as geographically challenged as Burke is, it was always rumored that they drew 70k or so per year.

I hate to say it, but Magic would be perfect for a private ski club. It's located close to major metropolitan areas and it would have MUCH more compelling terrain than the other options out there. And it just may be the most viable option.

VTKilarney · Aug 31, 2015

Do Work said:
Strat has earned the nickname "The Upper Upper West Side" for a reason- it's all the people that left the city... To sit in traffic with both on the highways AND in the liftline again on the hill. To me that really isn't getting away at all but some people are really into that sort of thing I guess.

I know exactly what you mean. I've always said that I didn't escape to the country to be surrounded by the city - which is why I avoid ski areas that give me that feeling.

Do Work · Aug 31, 2015

VTKilarney said:
I'm shocked at the 20k skier visit number. For as geographically challenged as Burke is, it was always rumored that they drew 70k or so per year.

I hate to say it, but Magic would be perfect for a private ski club. It's located close to major metropolitan areas and it would have MUCH more compelling terrain than the other options out there. And it just may be the most viable option.

Not to mention they've broken even at that level- and even made a modest profit in years past. All without a really well organized ski school and a dismal rental situation. Even just incremental improvements could net them a good profit as long as they keep their operating costs low.

VTKilarney · Aug 31, 2015

Do Work said:
Not to mention they've broken even at that level- and even made a modest profit in years past.

That is VERY impressive. My concern, however, is that they have broken even because of a ton of deferred maintenance.

What the heck is going on at Magic?

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