Big snowmaking upgrade at Wildcat

deadheadskier · Jul 19, 2014

I wonder if dredging the pond deeper is an option and how much more water capacity they could realize by doing so.

One thing Wildcat has going for it is it's great snow retention. If they start early as they say they will, there will be somewhat ample time for the pond to recharge as the season goes on. Blow Lynx then Polecat to start the season off. Follow it with Catapult and a few trails off the Bobcat chair. As the season gets rolling, I think the most important thing for them is to keep enough water in reserve to be able to frequently resurface Middle Wildcat and the section of Middle Lynx under the Tomcat. Those seem to be the real problem areas that turn into boiler plate almost daily.

MadMadWorld · Jul 20, 2014

yeggous said:
Attitash has decent capacity from their ASC days. They do a decent job eventually burning the mountain, but they start making snow very late.

Most of the money being spent at Wildcat this season is for new pipe. They bought new compressors last year which provided them with enough power to blow top to bottom for the first time. Unfortunately the higher pressure wreaked havoc on their ancient pipes.

Looking forward Wildcat's next problem will be water supply, and that will be very difficult to solve.

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Supply is not a huge issue. It's storage.

mbedle · Jul 20, 2014

Are they limited on their withdrawal from the river?

yeggous said:
Attitash has decent capacity from their ASC days. They do a decent job eventually burning the mountain, but they start making snow very late.

Most of the money being spent at Wildcat this season is for new pipe. They bought new compressors last year which provided them with enough power to blow top to bottom for the first time. Unfortunately the higher pressure wreaked havoc on their ancient pipes.

Looking forward Wildcat's next problem will be water supply, and that will be very difficult to solve.

As far as opening early, it really comes down to two things. A companies' decision to use an early opening date as a marketing tool, that cost a set amount of money. Or companies that walk the line on when opening actually results in increase revenue or at least breaking even.

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thetrailboss · Jul 21, 2014

Good news.

yeggous · Jul 21, 2014

mbedle said:
Are they limited on their withdrawal from the river?

I would not call Thompson Brook a river. It's a healthy source of water this time of the year, but it freezes solid in winter. If it's so cold that your snowmaking pipes flash freeze solid, then the brook is also not flowing. There is a reason that Wildcat is famous for its brook skiing. One of Wildcat's biggest problems is the temperature of its water supply.

steamboat1 · Jul 21, 2014

It amazes me that Wildcat investing $2 million in snow making upgrades is big news. Stowe is investing $2 million in snow making upgrades this summer & they don't even mention it in their blogs. If an employee didn't tell me about the investment no one here would even know, including myself.

I do hope it works out for Wildcat after the snow making disaster they experienced last year.

deadheadskier · Jul 21, 2014

$2M is big news when you talk scale of the area and what they've done historically. Wildcat is about half the size of Stowe in terrain and maybe 10% the size of Stowe in terms of the skiing revenue they generate. They are investing about as much money as they brought in last season in total revenue. That's why it's big news for them.

$2M today at Stowe isn't a big deal, but it would've been big news 20 years ago when they invested very little in snowmaking and relied heavily on natural. My first winter living in Stowe (95-96) they probably made maybe 25% as much snow as they do today.

steamboat1 · Jul 21, 2014

I'm not disagreeing with you DHS but I do find it ironic. Last year it was big news when Okemo (an area similar in size & revenue to Stowe) invested only $1 million in snow making upgrades. Same thing at K with their $2 million investment in snow making last year. Of course it was big news at Stowe with them investing over $8 million in snow making between last season & the season before. This year with only a $2 million investment at Stowe they don't even mention it.

Puck it · Jul 21, 2014

deadheadskier said:
$2M is big news when you talk scale of the area and what they've done historically. Wildcat is about half the size of Stowe in terrain and maybe 10% the size of Stowe in terms of the skiing revenue they generate. They are investing about as much money as they brought in last season in total revenue. That's why it's big news for them.

$2M today at Stowe isn't a big deal, but it would've been big news 20 years ago when they invested very little in snowmaking and relied heavily on natural. My first winter living in Stowe (95-96) they probably made maybe 25% as much snow as they do today.

Big news because their snowmaking has always been sucky.

MadMadWorld · Jul 21, 2014

yeggous said:
I would not call Thompson Brook a river. It's a healthy source of water this time of the year, but it freezes solid in winter. If it's so cold that your snowmaking pipes flash freeze solid, then the brook is also not flowing. There is a reason that Wildcat is famous for its brook skiing. One of Wildcat's biggest problems is the temperature of its water supply.

Thompson Brook has a more important role come winter time.

deadheadskier · Jul 22, 2014

Doesn't Wildcat draw from the Peabody River (what runs behind their base lodge) to fill the pond and not Thompson's brook? Peabody is probably equally as cold as Thompson.

Either way, I have a hard time buying the water source is too cold argument. Maybe the water storage is too cold because the pond is shallow?

Stowe draws from the Little River. That water is cold as hell and I'd be willing to bet that average winter temperatures at Stowe's base are colder than those at Wildcat. Yet, Stowe makes a crap load of snow without issue.

Which brings me back to my former question regarding dredging the pond. If they did so, wouldn't it both increase the capacity and provide a higher water temperature if they were pumping from the bottom of the pond where there's some insulation from the surface air?

mbedle · Jul 22, 2014

I can't see how water temperature is an issue with snow making. Typically, the colder it is the better snowmaking will be. Given an early season temp average around 28 and water in the pound at a low of 34, it does seem that flash freezing would be an issue. Later in the season, maybe it is, but how much snow are they typically making in January and February.

yeggous · Jul 22, 2014

mbedle said:
I can't see how water temperature is an issue with snow making. Typically, the colder it is the better snowmaking will be. Given an early season temp average around 28 and water in the pound at a low of 34, it does seem that flash freezing would be an issue. Later in the season, maybe it is, but how much snow are they typically making in January and February.

You must be from the Mid-Atlantic.

28 degrees is a beautiful spring day at Wildcat. The wind is just as important as the temperature. The "wind chill" effect is just as real on water pipes and ponds as it is on your skin.

When a cold front comes through, it also kicks up the wind creating a double whammy. We are easily talking about sub-zero wind chills during cold air outbreaks at Wildcat in November. This is why they were able to flash-freeze the water pipe last year.

yeggous · Jul 22, 2014

deadheadskier said:
Doesn't Wildcat draw from the Peabody River (what runs behind their base lodge) to fill the pond and not Thompson's brook? Peabody is probably equally as cold as Thompson.

Either way, I have a hard time buying the water source is too cold argument. Maybe the water storage is too cold because the pond is shallow?

Stowe draws from the Little River. That water is cold as hell and I'd be willing to bet that average winter temperatures at Stowe's base are colder than those at Wildcat. Yet, Stowe makes a crap load of snow without issue.

Which brings me back to my former question regarding dredging the pond. If they did so, wouldn't it both increase the capacity and provide a higher water temperature if they were pumping from the bottom of the pond where there's some insulation from the surface air?

My understanding is that they draw from both. I don't know about the depth or feasibility of dredging the pond. I do know that the management is aware of this option as they just did this at Attitash.

I'm not sure if the base temperatures are colder at Wildcat or Stowe. They both are roughly the same elevation and latitude. The big difference is the wind speed. As I just mentioned in my previous reply, the wind chill effect applies to pipes and ponds too.

deadheadskier · Jul 22, 2014

Wildcat probably has the edge in terms of being windier, but not by much. The wind can really whip through the notch at Stowe. Water temp just seems like a weird excuse to me. Tremblant is another cold as hell ski area and they make a ton of snow too. Sugarloaf would be another.

mbedle · Jul 22, 2014

I sticking by my guns on this one. First of all, wind chill effects can only reduce an object to the actual air temperature. So, if its 30 degrees out and the wind chill is -20 degrees, the coldest the pipe can get is 30 degrees. That does not take into account the radiant heat coming from the ground surface. I will say that sub zero temperatures do happen on Mt Washington in November, but last year it was only for 7 days. Given the elevation difference between wildcat, I could guess there were less at Wildcat. There were significantly more sub zero days in December at Mt Washington. I would assume that wildcat has experienced this flash freezing in the past and would monitor air temperatures to make sure they don't pump when this is going to occur. And, as DHS stated, there are many other ski resorts worldwide that have to deal with extreme cold weather.

St. Bear · Jul 22, 2014

I would say that comparing the snowmaking infrastructure of Wildcat to Tremblant is a stretch, to say the least.

I don't know much about snowmaking, but if freezing is a big issue at certain locations, I'm sure there are ways to insure against it, such as insulating the pipe, in order to minimize the chances of damage. I would expect a place like Tremblant to have the top of the line infrastructure to have these measures in place. Not so much at Wildcat.

mbedle · Jul 22, 2014

I am guessing that the issue is not in the trunk supply lines, but maybe at the actual guns and secondary feeder lines. It would make sense that with a smaller volume of water moving through a even smaller diameter of pipe, flash freezing could occur at extremely low temps. More so, given how much less flow is going through the secondary feeder lines. Lets look at it this way, good news they are investing some money into it and hopefully this problem will go away this season.

SIKSKIER · Jul 23, 2014

Windchill sminchill.Windchill does not effect inanimate objects.Windchill factor is the "feel like" factor of heat loss from exposed skin.The windchill factor is always lower than the actual temperature.

What is Wind Chill Temperature?
It is the temperature it "feels like" outside and is based on the rate of heat loss from exposed skin caused by the effects of wind and cold. As the wind increases, the body is cooled at a faster rate causing the skin temperature to drop. Wind Chill does not impact inanimate objects like car radiators and exposed water pipes, because these objects cannot cool below the actual air temperature.
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/windchill/wind-chill-brochure.pdf

Puck it · Jul 23, 2014

SIKSKIER said:
Windchill sminchill.Windchill does not effect inanimate objects.Windchill factor is the "feel like" factor of heat loss from exposed skin.The windchill factor is always lower than the actual temperature.

What is Wind Chill Temperature?
It is the temperature it "feels like" outside and is based on the rate of heat loss from exposed skin caused by the effects of wind and cold. As the wind increases, the body is cooled at a faster rate causing the skin temperature to drop. Wind Chill does not impact inanimate objects like car radiators and exposed water pipes, because these objects cannot cool below the actual air temperature.
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/windchill/wind-chill-brochure.pdf

I know I did not have the heart to break it to him. He was on a roll. Just like when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor.

Big snowmaking upgrade at Wildcat

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