VTKilarney
Well-known member
Correct. A full chair is a full chair, even if the line at the bottom is shorter. If the slopes are less busy, I am willing to bet that it is imperceptible.
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Jay Peak bombshell
- Thread starter VTKilarney
- Start date
You can bet what you want, but in my experience the slopes are without a doubt less busy during that time. I'm not going to say every ski area is like that, but where I am I've noticed it. It isn't some figment of my imagination.
Nor mine I agree with you 100% but encourage all others to believe otherwise.
VTKilarney
Well-known member
I'll err on the side of simple mathematics.
A line at the chair lift indicates that the down hill traffic flow rate is greater than the uphill traffic flow rate.
So a line at a chair is an indication that the trails are more crowded than a time where there is no line at the chair lift.
Right?
benski
Active member
Doesn't downhill flow rate=uphill flow rate number of lift rides=number of runs skied at most ski areas and the lift ride comes before the run at all but a few ski areas.
No - the down hill flow rate does not necessarily = the uphill flow rate because skiers ski at different rates. Also, some lifts are fed by trails accessed by multiple lifts.
VTKilarney
Well-known member
Well, I did say simple mathematics, LOL.
But here is what I don't understand. Let's assume that 33% of skiers ski slowly, 33% ski medium, and 33% ski fast. If that is what is being dumped off at the top of the hill by the chairlift, how does it matter whether more skiers are in line or not? If anything, a short line gets slower skiers more runs per hour than a long line. So wouldn't the slower skiers spend more time on the trail itself during the lunch hour?
I actually see some serious math here. It's an interesting question.
Here is what might make an actual difference in real life. Families and beginners are more prone to take a lunch break. This means that a disproportionate number of slow skiers are in the lodge. But they aren't skiing the trails that I like to ski. So if there is a higher percentage of better skiers on the hill during lunch, I would anticipate that the trails that I like to ski are more crowded during lunch.
dlague
Active member
I often think that lunch time skiing is not so much about less crowds than it is about shorter lift lines. Bonus is when it is ski on ski off with empty chairs as well.
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dlague
Active member
No because the bigger the lines the more people that seem to hang out on the trails.
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Yeah, it's fun to think about these kinds of puzzles....
And you know....I think my original statement isn't always true.
And example of a long line NOT indicating crowded trails, yet still indicating downhill flow > uphill flow... If it's a wickedly slow lift, or the lift is experiencing delays....in that case, the line is simply caused by very slow uphill traffic, and the trails might be relatively empty.
But a fast lift running consistently...well, in that case, the long line indicates crowded trails...I think.
Say the 4-runner takes 10 minutes to get to the top. I would bet the average skier takes longer than 10 minutes to cover the 2000 vert back to the base. So if the lift keeps churning at a rate greater than the average decent rate, and people keep showing up to ski....they keep getting to the top in 10, average decent time being say 15 minutes, initially there might be no line as people are defending, but if more and more people are coming, eventually they end up on the trails together and then in the line at the bottom.
VTKilarney
Well-known member
That is a definite advantage, although as BG stated it adds up to a run or maybe two. But there is something to be said for the mental element. It's like being stuck in a traffic jam. I'd much rather be stuck in traffic that is moving, albeit slowly, than traffic that is stopped, even if the delay is exactly the same.
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
Well is wouldn't have helped you at Jay Peak on Saturday, because the lift lines were ridiculous all over the mountain. They never shut down ticket sales and it was horrendous. The line at the Flyer backed up the hill so far that you actually had to stand sideways because you were up the hill. Also, an employee told me they waited 1.5 HOURS for the tram!!!!! I understand that they're in a terrible spot financially, but they're cutting off their nose to spite their face. It definitely impacted Sunday sales as I heard more than a few "screw this, we aint coming back tomorrow" grumblings during the day, and sure enough, yesterday really wasnt that bad at all for a PDW Sunday with good conditions. I was pleasantly surprised especially given how awful Saturday was.
As for your mathematical puzzle, assuming the lift is continuously running at constant capacity, then your "simple math" is correct. It wouldn't matter if every person on earth was in line, or if just enough people to continuously keep every chair filled for the duration of your study was in line. The perceived on hill crowding would be the same, it's the lift line wait that would be different!
fbrissette
Well-known member
Worst lines I have seen in 7 years of skiing every week-end at Jay Peak. And by quite a margin.
While Sunday lines were significantly shorter than Saturday, they were still the worst lines I have seen on a Sunday. It's actually exceptional to have to wait more than a minute or two on a Sunday at Jay peak (not counting the Tram).
Saturday was the perfect storm in terms of crowds - huge snowfalls in the previous days, beautiful weather, and the beginning of President's week.
I would not at all be surprised if Saturday was the single busiest day ever in the northeast. Even Plattekill in the Catskills had a 4-5 minute lift line much of the time on Saturday!
I think that is only true if the average skier DESCENT is less than the average skier ASCENT.
IOW - if the ride up the mountain takes 8 minutes and the ski down the mountain takes 6, then yes, the trail will have the same number of people on it and the line at the bottom will grow.
But if the ride up the mountain takes 8 minutes and the ski down takes 10, a line would only develop as new skiers are introduced into the equation, either from arrival or from entering the trail from a different part of the mountain. So, if the ski down is greater thant he ride up, and a line develops at the base, that could - but not necessarily would - indicate the trails are more crowded.
(I remember years and years ago reading an article about the effects of HSQs on the ski experience. And this was discussed. While it was great that the lifts could get people up the mountain faster, and you spend less time on the lift and in the line, a negative consequence was that more people were actually skiing at once on trails not capable of handing the capacity.)
Just something to file away....we were at Belleayre Saturday and I was totally freaking out worrying about the crowds. The road in was crowded and slow, the access road was packed. parking lots filling up while we unloaded....almost got back in the car and drove to Platty.
But we could see lift 7 was ski-on, so we forged ahead.
Place was crowded, but the only significant line we had was the super chief. I was pretty impressed at how the mountain handled the crowd. 7 and Tomahawk lifts all day were maybe 3-5 minute wait at worst, and often near to ski on.
Having said that, really bummed we haven't made it to Platty this year. Was planning on going saturday but looks like hard rain and 50F.
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
My streak of skiing Presidents Weekend at Jay Peak is officially over PDW 2018. There's no way in hell I'm skiing there if they're not going to cap sales.
Someone told me they were pushing 7,000 ticket sales on Saturday (I'll have to ask them, because I didnt ask if this includes vouchers, snowchecks, and other non-paids, but I dont think it does), which doesn't include liftopia (I dont think), pre-paid vacationers, and season pass holders etc... They believed it was the record. Yes, you're correct regarding Sunday always being lighter than Saturday (unless there's bad weather on Saturday), but my point was given how life-sucking Saturday was, I was "happy" with Sunday's crowds. I can deal with a line on a holiday weekend, just not the line to get into Giants Stadium versus the Eagles.
Jcb890
Active member
Holy hell! That sounds awful.
gladerider
Active member
jay peak's line problem is that there are only 2 main lifts to spread out the crowd. the flyer and bonnie. if they had put another chair on top of the andre's paradise and another one nearby, the crowd at the flyer wouldn't be too bad at all.
i was on the tram on sunday and the guy operating the door said that they are planning a major tram upgrade this summer. not sure what that means. i think the tram capacity is around 50 but they were only putting like 30 each time. i think they are worried about something.
my group has been coming to jay for the PDW for the last few years. i think this is our last trip for a while. think we are going to sugarbush/killington next year.
i was on the tram on sunday and the guy operating the door said that they are planning a major tram upgrade this summer. not sure what that means. i think the tram capacity is around 50 but they were only putting like 30 each time. i think they are worried about something.
my group has been coming to jay for the PDW for the last few years. i think this is our last trip for a while. think we are going to sugarbush/killington next year.
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