Jay Peak bombshell

VTKilarney said:

Masskier,

I keep coming back to the fact that it is not Vermont values to have high esteem for someone who engages in dishonesty and/or deception. You can believe that it was a "communications error" to take nine months to tell investors that their equity interest was wiped out. I don't. And we shall see what other shenanigans, if any, are uncovered.

But I think what we are seeing here is a difference between Vermont values and Massachusetts values. I hope people keep the apparent difference in values in mind when they decide if someone is trustworthy enough to do business with.

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I told my brother-in-law that I have learned a simple rule in life: wherever there is a lot of money in one place there is a high risk of greed and wrongdoing. A project of this size does need scrutiny and questioning to be sure that things are what they should be and that there is nothing shady.

I lived in the shadow of Jay and Burke for a majority of my life and watched them. I have a lot of respect for Bill but frankly what I've been seeing and hearing has been both surprising and not so surprising. Surprising that a guy who I've seen as being frank, has developed and used one of the slickest and most well-oiled PR machines, and has overall a great relationship with customers "all of the sudden" just "forgot" to announce a major change in financial and corporate structures to his business partners. That does not make sense to me. However, as a guy who is always optimistic and has for years successfully marketed a remote, cold, windy, icy resort as the best thing since sliced bread, I'm not at all surprised to hear that folks claim that he made personal assurances to repay these folks with a very good rate of return.

I am very disappointed with how my (original home) State has completely effed up here. As many have pointed out, the perceived "advantage" of Jay and other Vermont EB-5 projects was the "fact" that the State was "overseeing" these projects in order to protect all involved. It looks like all involved hyped that fact. Now we are learning that there is no "oversight" at all and that the State agencies are merely a PR machine and nothing more. The right response would have been to say "time out" and to ask for more information from both sides to ensure that things are fine instead of spilling ink on defending one of the parties with no concern for the investors. This will hurt future investment in Vermont, but considering what I've seen, the administration doesn't care.

Vermont vs. Massachusetts values? Seriously????? Give me a break. No state has a monopoly on "good values." There are assholes and crooked businessmen everywhere. I'm not saying Stenger is, I'll let the courts decide that.
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I was born in Mass, but this head has hit the pillow to finish the day in Vermont more than any other place. If you don't think VT has it's fair share of shady businessmen, you're completely naive. I've been ripped off in VT just as much as any other of the 12 states I've called home.

I live in NH now. Plenty of crooked businessmen here too.

VTKilarney said:

I think what we are seeing here is a difference between Vermont values and Massachusetts values.

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I'd like to see this specifically laid out.

VTKilarney said:

...and Massachusetts values.

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Didn't know there was such a thing as Massachusetts values. May be this explains why they cheer for the dirty Boston Bruins.

fbrissette said:

Didn't know there was such a thing as Massachusetts values. May be this explains why they cheer for the dirty Boston Bruins.

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We value plenty. Like not having to drive an hour to get groceries.

MadMadWorld said:

We value plenty. Like not having to drive an hour to get groceries.

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or dive like a soccer team when someone skates within 3 feet of you.

I think it is relevant to remind ourselves who is in charge at Jay.
Q is the majority owner, and Jay is part of Q resorts.
William Kelly is Jays legal counselor, COO and Quiro's long term right hand man (consigliere?).
They are very shrewd and savvy business men with many different business enterprises.

IMO they wrote the agreements and are pulling the financial levers here. (i.e., dissolving partnerships)
While Bill may genuinely care about Jay and the NEK, for them it is all about the money and nothing else.
Unfortunately, I think Bill has to toe the line of Q's intentions.
The reports in VT Digger are useful as they do reveal real intentions of Q.

Bring on the snow

LONGBOARDR said:

I think it is relevant to remind ourselves who is in charge at Jay.
Q is the majority owner, and Jay is part of Q resorts.
William Kelly is Jays legal counselor, COO and Quiro's long term right hand man (consigliere?).
They are very shrewd and savvy business men with many different business enterprises.

IMO they wrote the agreements and are pulling the financial levers here. (i.e., dissolving partnerships)
While Bill may genuinely care about Jay and the NEK, for them it is all about the money and nothing else.
Unfortunately, I think Bill has to toe the line of Q's intentions.
The reports in VT Digger are useful as they do reveal real intentions of Q.

Bring on the snow

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I think this is a VERY good observation and point.

Masskier said:

Umm, So only four out of 35 investors are willing to go on record about this. They put the bulk of their net worth into an investment with no guarantee of getting a cent back. They don't acknowlege the PPM's, disclousures, and other operatring documents they agreed to and signed, that governs the way the entity operates.

Vt Agency of Commerce and Community Development corrects several inaccurate statements in an Oct 5th article that appeared in the VT Digger here;

http://vtdigger.org/2014/10/13/patricia-moulton-vtdiggers-eb-5-story-inaccurate/

And Sutton's responds here,

http://vtdigger.org/2014/10/22/phase-1-eb-5-investors-respond-moulton-commentary/

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It also seems very odd to be criticizing the very investors who are putting up their own money and accepting the risk for Burke/Jay so that certain third-party real estate investors can reap the benefits of a better resort to sell their own real estate. But what do I know? :dunce:

VTKilarney said:

You can believe that it was a mere "communications error" to take nine months to tell investors that their equity interest was wiped out. I don't. And we shall see what other shenanigans, if any, are uncovered.

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Don't forget that the "delay" happened during a KEY fundraising time-frame and spanned that overseas investor trip to China.

Honestly? Anyone who doesn't at this point believe this affair is absurdly shady is either legitimately naive, or "willfully" naive.

BenedictGomez said:

Don't forget that the "delay" happened during a KEY fundraising time-frame and spanned that overseas investor trip to China.

Honestly? Anyone who doesn't at this point believe this affair is absurdly shady is either legitimately naive, or "willfully" naive.

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The timing is too coincidental.


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Well I'm still not convinced. Unless some new facts are uncovered, this is pretty much the same story. One of the local papers is investigating this, maybe they will come up with something new. The VT Digger reported that there are now more than a 1,000 investors and over $500 million raised. There seems to be only four that are making the allegations. Unfortunately we are not privy to the offering docs. One of the reasons why everything is disclosed and spelled out is to avoid the "He said, She said" later on. The Docs are what governs the rights of all parties.

Not sure about the MA values, VT values statement. Any state that you do business in you expect to be treated fairly and honestly.

The allegation about how the exit strategy was implemented was answered by the state, (quoted from the VT Diggers article)

"Some of the EB-5 investors in the private limited partnership that financed the construction of the Tram Haus Lodge objected to an action taken by Bill Stenger, the General Partner, that was within the authority of the agreement entered into and signed by each limited partner. Mr. Stenger’s action was not in conflict with any federal law or regulations enacted for the EB5 program. Of note, the Jay Peak Tram Haus Lodge is one of the few EB-5 projects in the country to begin to pay back its investors, and each investor has obtained permanent United States residency."

I certainly agree that this whole program needs to be monitored and regulated a lot more. And additional regulation is already starting. You would think that all investors would be accredited.

Masskier said:

over $500 million raised.

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With ZERO financial accountability, which is so positively staggering it's almost unbelievable, and the part of the story I'm focusing on.

To me, the investor's concern is just a sideshow & a distraction.

VTKilarney said:

But I think what we are seeing here is a difference between Vermont values and Massachusetts values.

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What about holding people to their word as they promise in a contract? Do Vermonters value that? I think Vermonters are smart enough to figure out when someone gets what they want then suddenly changes their mind about a deal--- what might really be going on. Especially when what those people are claiming is directly contradicted by their agreement.

To me it seems far more likely the folks now have what they wanted (the greencard) and are superimposing their rosy expectations about an ROI over what they were actually promised. But that's just me. I recognize that someone could reasonably believe the investors over Stenger. Fine.

But as a sixth generation Vermonter who was born and raised there, but now lives in MA, I don't pretend to speak for what other Vermonters believe... or avoid the real discussion by getting into some "us versus them" tangent that has nothing to do with the real discussion. I've lived in a lot of different places.. and guess what? There are liars everywhere. There are good folks everywhere. And nobody has a monopoly on good values.

BenedictGomez said:

With ZERO financial accountability

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Except for the audited financial statements, receipts, W-2's, and other documents with the USCIS filings for each investor... and the 400 pages of communications with the regional center by Jay.. and the accessibility to all the financial documents and communications by the press through FOIA and the VT open records act. Except for all that there is zero accountability...

This is like East vs West rap wars

noreasterbackcountry said:

Except for the audited financial statements, receipts, W-2's, and other documents with the USCIS filings for each investor... and the 400 pages of communications with the regional center by Jay.. and the accessibility to all the financial documents and communications by the press through FOIA and the VT open records act. Except for all that there is zero accountability...

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When you say things like the above, it's painfully obvious that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, financially speaking. You clearly have no accounting background, do not work in finance, and have never worked on an audit a day in your life. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

I think we are at the point where it is clear where people stand on the issue. I'm content to let things play out and we shall see whose instinct was correct.

I'm still waiting for Larry, Darryl and Darryl to weigh in.

VTKilarney said:

I think we are at the point where it is clear where people stand on the issue. I'm content to let things play out and we shall see whose instinct was correct.

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My "stance" is one of complete uncertainly, which is the only possible answer at the moment - and THAT'S the problem.

I have absolutely no idea what's going on, other than gross negligence on both the part of Jay Peak and the State of Vermont.