Belleayre Resort will fail unless scaled back, Catskill Heritage Alliance(NY Catskil

marcski said:

I'm quite skeptical that a "build it and they will come" approach will work for Belleayre. .........

It's doomed for failure with NY taxpayers dollars going down with it. It seems to be State and public funded private development.

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That's where you're wrong. It's going to work PERFECTLY, it's just that you have the wrong goal and intent in mind.

It's going to work great as a taxpayer-funded handed to both the Unions and contractors that "support" the correct politicians. The money from New Yorkers hard-earned paychecks will go down the toilet, but the Unions and campaign contributors will gobble it up - which is the REAL goal of this "project". All you have to do is dupe naive New Yorkers into thinking it's a "revitalization" project that actually has a chance for success.

JimG. said:

Totally agree with one addition...the terrain at Belleayre is not world class. Anyone who thinks skiers will choose Belleayre over resorts out west or even VT or any other NE resort is delusional.

If NY spends tax dollars on this every governmental official and every politician in NY should be lynched.

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I don't even choose Belleayre over resorts 15 minutes down the road from Belleayre.

So why does Vernon Valley do so well?

VTKilarney said:

So why does Vernon Valkey do so well?

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Because it tje closes hill to NYC 45 kilee i think and lots and lots of buses. it easy to get to snd great for family.

ScottySkis said:

Because it tje closes hill to NYC 45 kilee i think and lots and lots of buses. it easy to get to snd great for family.

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I thought it was the awesome cabriolet!

Downhiller said:

Hi, thanks for your comment. The Belleayre Resort at Crossroads Park is a single resort development. To clarify, the proposed Crossroads hotel/resort complex at Belleayre would be among the largest single resort developments in the Northeastern U.S. This is what the report is referring to, a single resort development.

A resort area such as those you have mentioned consists of multiple individual resort developments. Of course resort areas of Stratton, Okemo, Killington et. al. have a larger total room count than the proposed Crossroads resort at Belleayre. However, few of the individual resort hotel developments at these areas are larger than the Crossroads resort would be, which is the point being made. Feasibility as in this instance is being assessed for an individual project, not an entire (multi-project) resort area.

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Calling this a single development resort is a distinction that has no meaning. The proposed Belleayre Resort will be done in phases just like all the other areas I mentioned.

The Wildacres section that you mention is 250 hotel units and 169 2 br fractional share units. Your report clearly states that this would rank among the largest base areas in the Northeast. Here is the quote from page one of your report:

" A smaller and less capital-intensive resort of perhaps 250 (+/-) units in the Wildacres areamay be feasible. At this scale it would increase the number of lodging units in the Route 28Corridor by about 80 percent. It would rank among the largest base area resorts in the Northeastern U.S. and exceed the size of all but one of HVS’ Rocky Mountain resort set."
Italics and bold are mine

Calling a hotel of 250 units + 169 2br units one of the largest base area resorts in the Northeast is simply not true.
To repeat myself - I guess you have never been to Stratton, Okemo, Killington, Sugarbush, Seven Springs, Mountain Creek, Holiday Valley, Hunter Mtn and Windham Mtn. Since you said the Northeast we could also include Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Bretton Woods, Loon, Mt St Anne, Mt Tremblant, Stowe, Jay Peak, and Smugglers Notch.

Maybe they'll build a water/action park.

VTKilarney said:

So why does Vernon Valley do so well?

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Does it?

The property has been bankrupt at least once previously.

BenedictGomez said:

Does it?

The property has been bankrupt at least once previously.

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Their is always a lot of people their on weekends.MY family had a townhouse their several years ago. Maybe part of the reason it has been bankrupt in the past is because when they use to use color coded tickets the security ppl would just call their boss and find out what color the tickets they were using for the day and hand them out this is fact.

If its nice and people have a good time they WILL COME. Belleayre, Hunter, and Windham were all built on the idea if you build it they will come.

Most people that post here are expert double diamond type skiers. You expert guys and gals are part of the 10% of all skiers club. Most skiers are intermediates and never evers which fits Belleayre very nicely. Will this new Belleayre Resort increase the number of people that ski? I think it will. Will Belleayre help increase the number of skiers and expert skiers that want to ski Hunter, Windham, Vermont and out west? I believe it will.

Hunter in the early days of 1960s and 1970s attracted many never ever skiers out of NY City, Long Island, and NJ. When I ski out west I ask people where did you get started skiing and many tell me Hunter Mtn, Belleayre, Windham. Some of the ski instructors out west have told me they got started in the Catskills and smaller hills in Southern NY.

There is an extremely large pool of customers in and around New York City. All you have to do is market to them and they will come.

x10003q said:

Calling this a single development resort is a distinction that has no meaning. The proposed Belleayre Resort will be done in phases just like all the other areas I mentioned.

The Wildacres section that you mention is 250 hotel units and 169 2 br fractional share units. Your report clearly states that this would rank among the largest base areas in the Northeast. Here is the quote from page one of your report:

" A smaller and less capital-intensive resort of perhaps 250 (+/-) units in the Wildacres areamay be feasible. At this scale it would increase the number of lodging units in the Route 28Corridor by about 80 percent. It would rank among the largest base area resorts in the Northeastern U.S. and exceed the size of all but one of HVS’ Rocky Mountain resort set."
Italics and bold are mine

Calling a hotel of 250 units + 169 2br units one of the largest base area resorts in the Northeast is simply not true.
To repeat myself - I guess you have never been to Stratton, Okemo, Killington, Sugarbush, Seven Springs, Mountain Creek, Holiday Valley, Hunter Mtn and Windham Mtn. Since you said the Northeast we could also include Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Bretton Woods, Loon, Mt St Anne, Mt Tremblant, Stowe, Jay Peak, and Smugglers Notch.

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Thanks. The distinction is very meaningful, as is the proposed size. Crossroads is seeking State permits for a 629 unit development that includes two hotels. They've indefinitely deferred about 95 units. The first phase is to now consist of 423 units per HVS' analysis. That's what is proposed, and that's what Crossroads consultant (HVS) analyzed and submitted to DEC. Crossroads seems rather reluctant to seek approval of anything less.

The 423 units per HVS's most recent analysis are to be located at BOTH the Wildacres and the Highmount area. The hotel fractionals (which are attached or associated with each of the two hotels) are referred to as "Phase 1" (see HVS, p. 75). Meaning that Phase 1 is to consist of 423 units, of which 250 are to located at Wildacres.

Few if any other NE base-area resort hotel developments of this size exist (be it 423 or 629 units), phased or otherwise, which is the point being made.

Perhaps the use of the term "resort" is causing some confusion. To clarify, the analysis concerns itself with the feasibility of an individual resort development, not a resort AREA (such as Stratton, Killington, Okemo, etc). The term comes from Crossroads and its Consultants, who refer to the development as the Belleayre Resort, or the Crossroads Resort at Belleayre Park, for example its web site:

http://www.belleayreresort.com/

HVS' feasibility study is for a base-area resort hotel development, as is the review of HVS' feasibility study. So when the Applicant, its consultant and others refer to the project as a "resort", this is what is being referred to. They are not referring to a resort AREA (e.g., Stratton, Killington, Okemo).

The key assumptions in HVS' recent feasibility analysis have been shown to be baseless. The resort will not generate top-line RevPar consistent with 5-star Rocky Mountain resorts, particularly if it is built consistent with the low-budget construction cost applied by HVS. Rather, it will tend to reflect RevPar of similar NE resorts, which is substantially less as documented by HVS. HVS also omits $100 million or more of construction costs. This is confirmed by actual reported construction costs of Rocky Mountain resorts, two recently constructed NE resorts, industry trade reports, and by two of HVS' SDEIS co-Consultants, Ragatz, and AKRF. Ragatz, in particular, shows HVS to have used grossly under-estimated construction costs.

How has that resort at Hunter done (this is a question, I really don't know)?

Finish line in sight for long-planned Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park

HIGHMOUNT >> After 14 years of proposals, revisions and reviews, the finish line is appears to be in sight for the Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park....

www.dailyfreeman.com/general-news/20140624/finish-line-in-sight-for-long-planned-belleayre-resort-at-catskill-park

Full construction is expected to take up to eight years because Crossroads is barred from disturbing more than 5 acres at a time.

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Yeah, you have fun with that = LULZ.

BenedictGomez said:

Yeah, you have fun with that = LULZ.

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Watch now NY state change this law for them.

"The resort, projected to cost $365 million to built, will surround the state-owned Belleayre Mountain Ski Center. The resort is to occupy 218 acres and comprise two hotels: the Wildacres Resort, with an 18 hole championship golf course designed by Davis Love III; and the more upscale Highmount Spa."

Seems like a whole hell of a lot on 218 acres for only 365 mil. 2 hotels, a resort with a championship golf course and an upscale spa?

catskills said:

If its nice and people have a good time they WILL COME. Belleayre, Hunter, and Windham were all built on the idea if you build it they will come.

Most people that post here are expert double diamond type skiers. You expert guys and gals are part of the 10% of all skiers club. Most skiers are intermediates and never evers which fits Belleayre very nicely. Will this new Belleayre Resort increase the number of people that ski? I think it will. Will Belleayre help increase the number of skiers and expert skiers that want to ski Hunter, Windham, Vermont and out west? I believe it will.

Hunter in the early days of 1960s and 1970s attracted many never ever skiers out of NY City, Long Island, and NJ. When I ski out west I ask people where did you get started skiing and many tell me Hunter Mtn, Belleayre, Windham. Some of the ski instructors out west have told me they got started in the Catskills and smaller hills in Southern NY.

There is an extremely large pool of customers in and around New York City. All you have to do is market to them and they will come.

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I'm going to disagree there. Belleayre has a number of problems unique to it that make it significantly less appealing than most Catskill areas or even some of the Poconos.

You can't get that much vertical off most of the runs. Tomahawk is ~900vf, Superchief is ~1150vf, Chair 3 is ~750vf.

Hunter is ~1475vf on the main face and ~1300vf on the West Side. Windham's East Side is ~1050vf and the West Side is ~1300vf. That's a big difference in terms of how long of a run I get.

And Superchief gets into the many issues with Belleayre's design/layout. Superchief's vertical is somewhat a lie, because it's not much fun to lap. Almost every trail is a nearly-straight cut right down the mountain without much character, which makes it rather boring after a day.

In short, I find Belleayre skis like a slightly taller Elk than it does Hunter/Windham, and that's not a positive attribute.

I think it's much less attractive than Hunter/Windham are to potential buyers, and I don't think it can support anywhere near the same scale of base development.

millerm277 said:

I'm going to disagree there. Belleayre has a number of problems unique to it that make it significantly less appealing than most Catskill areas or even some of the Poconos.

You can't get that much vertical off most of the runs. Tomahawk is ~900vf, Superchief is ~1150vf, Chair 3 is ~750vf.

Hunter is ~1475vf on the main face and ~1300vf on the West Side. Windham's East Side is ~1050vf and the West Side is ~1300vf. That's a big difference in terms of how long of a run I get.

And Superchief gets into the many issues with Belleayre's design/layout. Superchief's vertical is somewhat a lie, because it's not much fun to lap. Almost every trail is a nearly-straight cut right down the mountain without much character, which makes it rather boring after a day.

In short, I find Belleayre skis like a slightly taller Elk than it does Hunter/Windham, and that's not a positive attribute.

I think it's much less attractive than Hunter/Windham are to potential buyers, and I don't think it can support anywhere near the same scale of base development.

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+1 You totalled nailed it. The lodge in the middle of the hill really really hurts it to.

goldsbar said:

How has that resort at Hunter done (this is a question, I really don't know)?

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I hear it is almost always sold out. Friends that bought a share are making money on it, collecting $ for doing nothing. Apparently the wedding business is huge now. And they get a lot from that zipline. That is almost always sold out, even in the winter.

Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park on verge of final approval
The state Department of Environmental Conservation has completed its review of the proposed Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park and is expected to issue the necessary permits for the project to be built....

dailyfreeman.com/general-news/20140916/belleayre-resort-at-catskill-park-on-verge-of-final-approval

..............................................................................

The staff of the NYS Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC), the state agency that decides what environmental impacts might result from the construction and operation of the resort, have declared that there are no significant or substantive issues that would cause the DEC to deny permission for the project to be built....

www.belleayreresort.com/SupportComments.htm

millerm277 said:

I'm going to disagree there. Belleayre has a number of problems unique to it that make it significantly less appealing than most Catskill areas or even some of the Poconos.

You can't get that much vertical off most of the runs. Tomahawk is ~900vf, Superchief is ~1150vf, Chair 3 is ~750vf.

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Not to mention that the 6-8 runs off the Superchief funnel down into only two flat runouts the last 350 vertical feet. Tomahawk is better. The plans I've seen for new lifts (except the one in Highmount) include even longer flat runouts.