$1M for Mittersill "improvement project"

Smellytele · Aug 14, 2014

Abubob said:
I would think that would be impossible to quantify especially seeing as there are nearly no services as near to Cannon as there are to other areas. I don't even know what the closest gas station or restaurant there is south of Cannon other than what you would find in Franconia and I can't even think of much there. Lincoln/Woodstock is the closest and anyone that uses those services could much more easily ski at Loon. So I just don't see how it would be possible calculate outside taxes generated by each ski area.

Thinking out loud on this. I am going to be staying in Lincoln this year the last week of Feb. I planned it to ski Cannon (Tues/Wed/Thursday). I may ski Loon but I wouldn't if I wasn't there for the week. I do not like Loon for the most part but being there for Cannon I may ski it on that Monday. Anyway (I think) my point was that I will be spending money in that area for the week because of Cannon. Maybe I am a one off but doubt it.

dlague · Aug 14, 2014

Smellytele said:
Thinking out loud on this. I am going to be staying in Lincoln this year the last week of Feb. I planned it to ski Cannon (Tues/Wed/Thursday). I may ski Loon but I wouldn't if I wasn't there for the week. I do not like Loon for the most part but being there for Cannon I may ski it on that Monday. Anyway (I think) my point was that I will be spending money in that area for the week because of Cannon. Maybe I am a one off but doubt it.

You could ski either any time right? I don't think you live far from me!

Smellytele · Aug 14, 2014

dlague said:
You could ski either any time right? I don't think you live far from me!

I could. About an 1 1/2 from Cannon but didn't want to travel back and forth each day. If I day tripped I rarely do anything else in the area that costs money. Sometimes I do hit the Woodstock station. on a rare occasion hit a gas station.

Puck it · Aug 14, 2014

Smellytele said:
I could. About an 1 1/2 from Cannon but didn't want to travel back and forth each day. If I day tripped I rarely do anything else in the area that costs money. Sometimes I do hit the Woodstock station. on a rare occasion hit a gas station.

1 3/4 for me one way and I do it once or twice a week to Cannon. Just gas up in Conncord at the Sunoco or on the way home in Plymouth. Still cheaper than a hotel room.

timm · Aug 14, 2014

Newpylong said:
Off topic rant:
I could live in western MA and be paying so people in Boston can ride the T. Somewhere there has to be a balance.

It's great for things to be as localized and self supporting as possible but it is way too easy for these conversations to become a kind of myopic "woe is me" about particular services people don't want to pay for with nary a word about the subsidies they themselves utilize and like.

The MBTA thing is like an A #1 example of this kind of complaint that I hear constantly. Who do people in Western Mass think is helping to pay for all their roads? (Not to mention a huge part of the MBTA budget is debt service related to the Big Dig...a project that has nothing to do with the T.) Do they not realize that the home ownership rate in Boston is about half of what it is in Western Mass and that all those homes are being subsidized by taxpayers?

There is certainly a lot of waste in government but most often this subject seems to be more like an opportunity for soap boxing and ill-informed opinions than actually legitimate concern about waste or efficient use of taxpayer dollars. Even after it was pointed out multiple times that Cannon actually helps subsidize the entire state's park system, some people were still carrying on about the poor ol' "taxpayers" paying for Cannon.

dlague · Aug 14, 2014

Puck it said:
1 3/4 for me one way and I do it once or twice a week to Cannon. Just gas up in Conncord at the Sunoco or on the way home in Plymouth. Still cheaper than a hotel room.

Exactly - I am about an hour and 5 minutes or so and even with my gas guzzler it is way cheaper!

thetrailboss · Aug 14, 2014

Getting back to Cannon/Mittersill.........

dlague · Aug 14, 2014

thetrailboss said:
Getting back to Cannon/Mittersill.........

and?

bobbutts · Aug 14, 2014

timm said:
It's great for things to be as localized and self supporting as possible but it is way too easy for these conversations to become a kind of myopic "woe is me" about particular services people don't want to pay for with nary a word about the subsidies they themselves utilize and like.

The MBTA thing is like an A #1 example of this kind of complaint that I hear constantly. Who do people in Western Mass think is helping to pay for all their roads? (Not to mention a huge part of the MBTA budget is debt service related to the Big Dig...a project that has nothing to do with the T.) Do they not realize that the home ownership rate in Boston is about half of what it is in Western Mass and that all those homes are being subsidized by taxpayers?

There is certainly a lot of waste in government but most often this subject seems to be more like an opportunity for soap boxing and ill-informed opinions than actually legitimate concern about waste or efficient use of taxpayer dollars. Even after it was pointed out multiple times that Cannon actually helps subsidize the entire state's park system, some people were still carrying on about the poor ol' "taxpayers" paying for Cannon.

There is disagreement over the numbers so I don't think it's as clear as you make it. I'm in no position to be the judge in that dispute and it's not that interesting to me even as a NH taxpayer.
So putting that aside there is still the issue of how Cannon is run. I don't see how the Mittersill expansion can be considered anything but a business failure. They also do poorly early season with getting terrain open. They don't draw enough business midweek to keep the iconic tram running. The argument that the Mittersill money should have gone to modernizing Cannon proper seems strong to me. I think many of the people posting here like it this way, they don't want Cannon to get Loon or Sunapee type crowds. They don't want the trails to be homogenized and stashes turned into snowmaking boulevards. The way it's going, looks like that is happening with the current management, so on that point, looks like a guaranteed loss.

AdironRider · Aug 14, 2014

uphillklimber said:
You may not be aware of this, but I moved here 23 months ago and spent 4 building my home. The, any months drumming up work, finally taking a job with Sunday River. On top of that, I have been getting involved in several ad hoc committees locally. I apologize if my knowledge of state taxes is not as complete as you would have it.

Once you do start researching taxes and tax structure in ME, I suggest having a nice bottle of scotch by your side, you'll probably need it. Its a nightmare for ME specifically.

AdironRider · Aug 14, 2014

bobbutts said:
There is disagreement over the numbers so I don't think it's as clear as you make it. I'm in no position to be the judge in that dispute and it's not that interesting to me even as a NH taxpayer.
So putting that aside there is still the issue of how Cannon is run. I don't see how the Mittersill expansion can be considered anything but a business failure. They also do poorly early season with getting terrain open. They don't draw enough business midweek to keep the iconic tram running. The argument that the Mittersill money should have gone to modernizing Cannon proper seems strong to me. I think many of the people posting here like it this way, they don't want Cannon to get Loon or Sunapee type crowds. They don't want the trails to be homogenized and stashes turned into snowmaking boulevards. The way it's going, looks like that is happening with the current management, so on that point, looks like a guaranteed loss.

So you fault them for it not being like Anyskiresort USA but then blast them for taking away character of Barons etc.

You can't have it both ways.

MadMadWorld · Aug 14, 2014

AdironRider said:
So you fault them for it not being like Anyskiresort USA but then blast them for taking away character of Barons etc.

You can't have it both ways.

Don't get the 2 groups confused. I don't think they are one in the same.

Edd · Aug 14, 2014

My father lives in Maine. You practically have to fire a tranquilizer dart in him to stop the bitching about taxes. This is a guy that's retired and doesn't have to work.

Edd · Aug 14, 2014

bobbutts said:
They don't draw enough business midweek to keep the iconic tram running. The argument that the Mittersill money should have gone to modernizing Cannon proper seems strong to me.

Lot of places close lifts during the week, so it's tough to criticize Cannon about that. The iconic status of the tram is irrelevant.

As far as Mittersill, I don't have the fuzzy feelings I did when the expansion was initially proposed. It's still a work in progress, though.

steamboat1 · Aug 14, 2014

Edd said:
Lot of places close lifts during the week, so it's tough to criticize Cannon about that. The iconic status of the tram is irrelevant.

But doesn't certain lower mountain trails become inaccessible when the tram is not in operation? How do you get back to the Zoomer lift without hiking? Killington is a perfect example of a ski area that closes certain lifts during the week. Even with these closures all terrain is not only still accessable but easy to get to a lift from after skiing down.

AdironRider · Aug 14, 2014

The tram being closed affects 0 percent of available terrain.

At most, Tramline and Kinsman would require about 100 yards of skating. THE HORROR.

steamboat1 · Aug 14, 2014

AdironRider said:
The tram being closed affects 0 percent of available terrain.

At most, Tramline and Kinsman would require about 100 yards of skating. THE HORROR.

I've only skied Cannon a 1/2 dozen times over the years. I remember it being more of a schlep. If I'm wrong then I stand corrected.

bobbutts · Aug 14, 2014

AdironRider said:
The tram being closed affects 0 percent of available terrain.

At most, Tramline and Kinsman would require about 100 yards of skating. THE HORROR.

It's 3 lift rides to the top also. Not the end of the world, but not really something to lap.

I don't really know what I want. I like it empty, but I only go there when there's good snowpack and they lose my business to Sunapee or Loon frequently when it's not. None of us know what a lease operator would do differently anyway so it's really hard to argue for or against how we imagine it might be vs. how we imagine it might be in the future with the current management, yet people are extremely firm and vocal about their positions on the matter.

Abubob · Aug 14, 2014

bobbutts said:
It's 3 lift rides to the top also.

Only 2 that I'm aware of. Oh, I didn't finish reading. Yeah lapping Tramline/Avalanche would be 3. A bit difficult and not really a must do with so many other options. They did run the tram last year for Mass vacation week and ran all day despite a increasingly biting wind that made riding the Cannonball express more painful as the day wore on.

Smellytele · Aug 14, 2014

Puck it said:
1 3/4 for me one way and I do it once or twice a week to Cannon. Just gas up in Conncord at the Sunoco or on the way home in Plymouth. Still cheaper than a hotel room.

Maybe cheaper but 3 hours of driving for 4 days in a row would suck. I would rather not ski at that point. Driving back and forth to any mountain would be cheaper than owning a house near a mountain to but...

$1M for Mittersill "improvement project"

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