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$1M for Mittersill "improvement project"

bobbutts

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Cannon Mountain, Franconia: Cannon is spending nearly $2 million in improvements for 2014-2015, including roughly $1 million towards Phase I of the Mittersill improvement project which involves trail work. Trail expansion and a new snowmaking compressor that will add 28 percent more snowmaking capacity.

Nashua Telegraph article

Anyone have more details?
 

WzGy44

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I've held a season pass at Cannon for awhile now and a couple of things about that story concern me. The first is where mittersill is heading. I would prefer for it to keep it's back country feel, but it seems that they're hellbent on going forward with the ski team improvements. Skiing mittersill the last ten years as non groomed unkept playground has been a blast. I nearly lost it last year when they went up over the top and down mittersill with the groomer.

Secondly if they keep operating in the red exponentially every year at what point do we have to face the next "we need to sell cannon!" Frenzy from the Capitol house. Cannon is our last vestige of non resort affordable New England skiing. I would gladly pay a few more tax dollars to the state to keep it state owned.
 

Smellytele

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This is the statement that got me "Just one year prior to this latest debt increase, State Treasurer Catherine Provencher disclosed a growing deficit in the Cannon Mountain debt account and recommended lawmakers "stop the bleeding" as she expected the "deficit will continue to grow."
 

Cannonball

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This is the statement that got me "Just one year prior to this latest debt increase, State Treasurer Catherine Provencher disclosed a growing deficit in the Cannon Mountain debt account and recommended lawmakers "stop the bleeding" as she expected the "deficit will continue to grow."

Yeah, but you have to take that with a grain of salt. That quote comes from's Threecy's webpage and its well-known agenda. I'm very surprised that DHS would link to his page (maybe just trying to stir the pot??). We went through all this at the time that the treasurer conducted the audit. That quote is an out-of-context sound bite. In fact there's no evidence that she even said anything remotely like that. Here are the minutes from the audit meeting in reference http://www.nhstateparks.org/uploads/pdf/CMAC_Minutes_4-12-13.pdf

That's not to say that I don't have serious concerns about this plan. It doesn't seem like a good investment to me at all. There are lots of other improvements at Cannon that would get more bang for the buck.
 

deadheadskier

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Certainly no intention of stirring the pot. Despite my differences of opinion with him, I frequent his website (now 2 websites as I was unaware of newenglandskiindustry.com prior to this search) because he tends to always have the most up to date information on the industry. I give him a lot of credit for the work he does in that regard.
 

Puck it

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Yeah, but you have to take that with a grain of salt. That quote comes from's Threecy's webpage and its well-known agenda. I'm very surprised that DHS would link to his page (maybe just trying to stir the pot??). We went through all this at the time that the treasurer conducted the audit. That quote is an out-of-context sound bite. In fact there's no evidence that she even said anything remotely like that. Here are the minutes from the audit meeting in reference http://www.nhstateparks.org/uploads/pdf/CMAC_Minutes_4-12-13.pdf

That's not to say that I don't have serious concerns about this plan. It doesn't seem like a good investment to me at all. There are lots of other improvements at Cannon that would get more bang for the buck.

From NHPARKS.org site

"The project cost is estimated at roughly $3 million which would be privately funded by the Franconia Ski Club and gifted to the State (Cannon) upon completion. "
 

Abubob

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Couldn't read the article in the original post except this little tidbit: "August is no time to be thinking about skiing"

Other than that Cannon's plans to restore Mittersill to it's former glory are well known. It would have been nice to keep it a hike only option but the plans to fully restore have been on the books since 1998.

Quoted here is the entire proposal as updated in 2008:
February 21, 2008
Proposed Revision
Cannon Mountain Master Development Plan
Summary
In order to meet the conditions of the proposed exchange of lands between the Department of Resources and Economic Development and the White Mountain National Forest, a revision of the existing Cannon Mountain Master Development Plan is necessary. A new vision and development plan for the Mittersill Area is being proposed.
Public Comment
The Department of Resources and Economic Development is soliciting public comment on the following proposed Cannon Mountain Master Development Plan revision. Comments will be accepted by the department until 4:00 pm, Thursday March 6, 2008 and should be addressed to:
George Bald, Commissioner
Department of Resources and Economic Development
PO Box 1856
Concord, NH 03302-1856
gbald@dred.state.nh.us
Background
The Cannon Mountain Master Development Plan was adopted October 28, 1998. The Department of Resources and Economic Development has made significant progress in implementation of the Cannon Master Development Plan. The goals of the original plan were as follows (pp I-3 – I-4);
• Determine how to best use the $6,000,000 bonding authority provided for improvements in order to modernize the facilities and improve guest experience;
• Identify short term improvements and long term expansion for Cannon as well as improvements to the summer operations and activities such as the Tramway;
• Propose improvements to upgrade Cannon that will improve the ski areas’ long-range viability by:
o Offering an upgraded and more modern experience, including improved lifts, lodges, terrain and snowmaking;
o Increasing the potential for improved departmental revenue per visit from profit centers;
o Making Cannon more appealing to a larger customer base by diversifying and increasing the terrain available;
o Capitalizing on summer business opportunities; and,
o Allowing for a growth in skier visits from the current level of approximately 100,000-115,000 per year to 200,000 per year.


1

The $6,000,000 initial bond was spent to do the following improvements at the ski area;
• Peabody Express Detachable Quad (design, planning, excavation, installation), Tuckerbrook Quad (design, planning, excavation, installation), Eagle Cliff Triple (design, planning, excavation, installation), Brookside Triple (design, planning, excavation, installation), Brookside Learning Center (design & construction).


Additional projects were accomplished by using existing budgets, such as;
• Snowmaking at Brookside & Tuckerbrook, snowmaking (pipe & hydrant) replacement and expansion in several areas, trail design and construction at Tuckerbrook & Brookside, Notchview building expansion (retail & repair shops, First Aid & Trauma Center), upgrade to Peabody septic system, Tramway electrical system upgrade, Brookside road & parking bays.


Cannon Mountain Ski Area has traditionally been organized as three distinct areas; the Tramway, Peabody and Mittersill. The 1998 Plan anticipates a proposed land exchange with the White Mountain National Forest to acquire lands associated with the historic Mittersill Ski Area adjacent to the state-owned property which will provide connectivity to the summit of Cannon Mountain. There have been two other attempts to accomplish the exchange however, both times the exchange proposal was suspended for administrative and/or financial reasons.
The White Mountain National Forest Plan was completed in 2005 and one goal of the plan is to implement a land exchange between the Forest and DRED for the upper slopes of the Mittersill Area. In the intervening years between the completion of the Cannon Mountain Master Development Plan and the White Mountain National Forest Plan research has identified lands between 2,100 and 3,600 feet to be suitable northern range habitat for Bicknell’s Thrush, a species of concern. As a result, conditions to the exchange to preserve Bicknell Thrush habitat have been identified, therefore the Department of Resources and Economic Development must revise its development vision for the Mittersill Area of Cannon Mountain Ski Area.
Vision Statement
The vision for the development of the Mittersill Area including the lands acquired through exchange with the White Mountain National Forest is;
The Mittersill Area will be incorporated into the day to day management and operations of the Cannon Mountain Ski Area. The area will be of lesser development than the Tramway and Peabody Areas with limited skier services offered. Trail and skiing conditions will be managed and promoted as intermediate to advanced terrain with a backcountry feel. No new lift, trail, glade development or expansion of terrain will occur above the 2,500 foot elevation beyond the 1989 developed footprint. Existing trail and lift alignments and their widths shall be considered the maximum allowed.


2

Development Plan
Key facilities and infrastructure improvements include:
• Existing parking lots redevelopment and expansion as skier use increases;
• Construction of one double chair lift;
• Base Lodge providing shuttle transportation area, ticket sales center, first aid area, brown bag lunch and vending machine area; and,
• Snowmaking System.


Phase I (CY 2009)
1. Design and planning for the installation of a new lift utilizing the historic Mittersill double chair lift line, profile and topographical specifications;
2. Removal of unneeded existing infrastructure including lift towers, shacks, and other buildings;
3. All trails will be mowed, and erosion and drainage structures reestablished; and,
4. Parking lot upgrades.


Phase II (FY 2009 – 2010 & 2011 - 2012)
1. Lift Installation
2. Parking lot expansion
3. Base Lodge Construction


Phase IV (FY 2013 – 2014)
1. Snowmaking system construction


Component Estimated Cost
Existing Infrastructure $1,000,000
Trail Maintenance $ 100,000
Lift Installation $2,000,000
Parking lots $ 350,000
Lodge $3,000,000
Snowmaking System $2,500,000


3

 
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bobbutts

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Certainly no intention of stirring the pot. Despite my differences of opinion with him, I frequent his website (now 2 websites as I was unaware of newenglandskiindustry.com prior to this search) because he tends to always have the most up to date information on the industry. I give him a lot of credit for the work he does in that regard.
Chasing him away from this site was a fairly significant loss of relevant info, but that's what the forum wanted and moderators encouraged.
 

DoublePlanker

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I think the current incarnation of Mittersill misses the mark. It is really only a useful pod for die hard Cannon skiers. While I have skied Cannon more than any other ski area on earth, I don't frequent it enough anymore to be intimately familiar with the back country experience of Mittersill. The lift does not seem to run often enough to justify its existence. The development does not seem to add anything to the appeal of the place and does not seem to grow skier visits- their stated goal.

The maddening aspect of the pod is that there are no trail signs, markers, etc for how to get to it or to navigate the pod. Its even very easy to miss the cut off to get back to the lift. Its like you need to be a member of the special club just to get the keys to the kingdom. You have to learn secret knowledge.

From a marketing perspective, why can't they just name a few runs/glades and put them on the map. Sugarloaf burnt mountain would be an example. This might improve the coolness of the place and attract those unfamiliar.

Of course, increasing the knowledge of the runs/glades will likely hurt the quality of snow. And the secret society would not want that. :)
 

Puck it

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I think the current incarnation of Mittersill misses the mark. It is really only a useful pod for die hard Cannon skiers. While I have skied Cannon more than any other ski area on earth, I don't frequent it enough anymore to be intimately familiar with the back country experience of Mittersill. The lift does not seem to run often enough to justify its existence. The development does not seem to add anything to the appeal of the place and does not seem to grow skier visits- their stated goal.

The maddening aspect of the pod is that there are no trail signs, markers, etc for how to get to it or to navigate the pod. Its even very easy to miss the cut off to get back to the lift. Its like you need to be a member of the special club just to get the keys to the kingdom. You have to learn secret knowledge.

From a marketing perspective, why can't they just name a few runs/glades and put them on the map. Sugarloaf burnt mountain would be an example. This might improve the coolness of the place and attract those unfamiliar.

Of course, increasing the knowledge of the runs/glades will likely hurt the quality of snow. And the secret society would not want that. :)


The snow can not handle the traffic it gets now with the lift. Putting signs up would ruin all the rabbit holes for sure.
 

bobbutts

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He had an agenda and was called out on it for other reasons.
Calling out the Mittersill double as a waste seems to have been an accurate assessment among several others. Those who did the calling out seem to be less accurate and also with an agenda.
 

Abubob

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I think the current incarnation of Mittersill misses the mark. It is really only a useful pod for die hard Cannon skiers. While I have skied Cannon more than any other ski area on earth, I don't frequent it enough anymore to be intimately familiar with the back country experience of Mittersill. The lift does not seem to run often enough to justify its existence. The development does not seem to add anything to the appeal of the place and does not seem to grow skier visits- their stated goal.

The Mittersill development is ongoing. The chair was just the first piece of the puzzle. Adding snowmaking has always been part of the plan.

The maddening aspect of the pod is that there are no trail signs, markers, etc for how to get to it or to navigate the pod. Its even very easy to miss the cut off to get back to the lift. Its like you need to be a member of the special club just to get the keys to the kingdom. You have to learn secret knowledge.

My plan is to ski with Cannonball a few times. At least until he starts hucking cliff drops.

From a marketing perspective, why can't they just name a few runs/glades and put them on the map. Sugarloaf burnt mountain would be an example. This might improve the coolness of the place and attract those unfamiliar.

Of course, increasing the knowledge of the runs/glades will likely hurt the quality of snow. And the secret society would not want that. :)

They ran a contest a few years back to name their little kiddie terrain park. Maybe they'll do that again for Mittersill.
 

dlague

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This debate was kicked around earlier this year. Unfortunately, the Lease Cannon crowd continues to bash Cannon and muddy the financial waters. Then there are the Pro State Owned Cannon folks who are trying to point out the opposite. The Lease Cannon like to pose themselves as Tax Payers for Cannon but are actually trying to have Cannon to be no longer state owned. This group has many non skiing or snowboarding interests. https://www.facebook.com/TaxpayersForCannon

On the other hand the Pro State Owned group posted the following on their FB page https://www.facebook.com/savecannonmountain

As the snow melts away at Cannon comes good news: the mountain turned an operational profit of as much as $900,000 this past season, a substantial recovery from last year. Since 2008, Cannon has produced an average surplus of $515,000 annually - money that helps the self-funded state park system. Skier visits were up 25 percent this past season, which was within 3 percent of Cannon's record.

Cannon falls under the guise of The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation which is a self funded state entity. Much of the funding needed and/or revenues generated from Cannon are from this entity or are applied to this entity. The Governor approved $750,000 to be applied to the improvements which are funded by the Mount Sunapee lease which is also The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation revenue from Sunapee State Park. Another 1.25 million is being funded from elsewhere (Franconia Ski Club is prpobably one source).
 

Smellytele

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When they say
"As the snow melts away at Cannon comes good news: the mountain turned an operational profit of as much as $900,000 this past season, a substantial recovery from last year. Since 2008, Cannon has produced an average surplus of $515,000 annually - money that helps the self-funded state park system."

Does this include the monies from the Sunapee lease or not?
 

Puck it

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When they say
"As the snow melts away at Cannon comes good news: the mountain turned an operational profit of as much as $900,000 this past season, a substantial recovery from last year. Since 2008, Cannon has produced an average surplus of $515,000 annually - money that helps the self-funded state park system."

Does this include the monies from the Sunapee lease or not?

Yes, I think so.
 

Puck it

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This debate was kicked around earlier this year. Unfortunately, the Lease Cannon crowd continues to bash Cannon and muddy the financial waters. Then there are the Pro State Owned Cannon folks who are trying to point out the opposite. The Lease Cannon like to pose themselves as Tax Payers for Cannon but are actually trying to have Cannon to be no longer state owned. This group has many non skiing or snowboarding interests. https://www.facebook.com/TaxpayersForCannon

On the other hand the Pro State Owned group posted the following on their FB page https://www.facebook.com/savecannonmountain



Cannon falls under the guise of The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation which is a self funded state entity. Much of the funding needed and/or revenues generated from Cannon are from this entity or are applied to this entity. The Governor approved $750,000 to be applied to the improvements which are funded by the Mount Sunapee lease which is also The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation revenue from Sunapee State Park. Another 1.25 million is being funded from elsewhere (Franconia Ski Club is prpobably one source).


I thought money was coming FSC but this release does not even mention that.
 

bobbutts

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This debate was kicked around earlier this year. Unfortunately, the Lease Cannon crowd continues to bash Cannon and muddy the financial waters. Then there are the Pro State Owned Cannon folks who are trying to point out the opposite. The Lease Cannon like to pose themselves as Tax Payers for Cannon but are actually trying to have Cannon to be no longer state owned. This group has many non skiing or snowboarding interests. https://www.facebook.com/TaxpayersForCannon

On the other hand the Pro State Owned group posted the following on their FB page https://www.facebook.com/savecannonmountain



Cannon falls under the guise of The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation which is a self funded state entity. Much of the funding needed and/or revenues generated from Cannon are from this entity or are applied to this entity. The Governor approved $750,000 to be applied to the improvements which are funded by the Mount Sunapee lease which is also The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation revenue from Sunapee State Park. Another 1.25 million is being funded from elsewhere (Franconia Ski Club is prpobably one source).


As someone who has been visiting Cannon for a long time, have known a few employees there, it's pretty obvious to me that it's run poorly compared to the competition and specifically to Mt. Sunapee. The ridiculous and overpriced Mittersill double is just one example. I have some doubts about who exactly is muddying the financial waters. Even if the numbers are accurate, how's the ROI going on Mittersill?
 
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