Suicide Six's name

VTKilarney · Aug 29, 2014

If you want to see a typical description of Vermonter's who write the crazy op-ed pieces that pop up everywhere around here, just take a look at the bio of the author of an opinion piece just published on VTDigger:
[Name] is a writer and consultant with over 20 years experience in critical analysis, program development, and advocacy on issues of violence and oppression across issues and identities.

For those of you with real jobs, have you ever felt the need to explain your background in that manner?

BenedictGomez · Aug 29, 2014

deadheadskier said:
Being sensitive to other cultures is not about restricting your behavior / cultures as to not offend others. It's about accepting that other people are different from you. You do what you do. I do what I do.

Well-said.

deadheadskier said:
I bet Winooski must have a big ole "holiday tree" in December.

Oh, that's almost a guarantee.

Tin · Aug 29, 2014

I think I will have my freshmen in Logic 101 go through this thread to find all the Straw Man, Appeals to Tradition, and Red Herring arguments.

I don't have a problem with opinions but for f*ck's sake if you're going to have one at least be able to support it without name calling and childish bickering.

Domeskier · Aug 29, 2014

Tin said:
I think I will have my freshmen in Logic 101 go through this thread to find all the Straw Man, Appeals to Tradition, and Red Herring arguments.

Don't forget the ad hominems.

I don't have a problem with opinions but for f*ck's sake if you're going to have one at least be able to support it without name calling and childish bickering.

I guess you didn't!

4aprice · Aug 29, 2014

VTKilarney said:
Once again, you are mistakenly applying logic to this issue. There are tons of "advocates" in Vermont who treat logic and facts in the same manner that Superman treats kryptonite. They keep their distance.

BTW My daughter is in the state college system in Vermont. They give the students a break every 6 weeks, because... wait for it... they are afraid of students committing suicide. I had never heard of this before, apparently students in Vermont are more prone to suicide. I went to school in New Hampshire and saw some kids really almost go crazy during the January term with what I would term "Cabin Fever" (obviously non skiers) but never heard of someone think about suicide. Maybe that's what they are worried about with the ski area.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

BenedictGomez · Aug 29, 2014

4aprice said:
BTW My daughter is in the state college system in Vermont. They give the students a break every 6 weeks, because... wait for it... they are afraid of students committing suicide. I had never heard of this before

In the last 15 to 20 years, Vermont has turned uber-liberal. It's somewhat fascinating.

It's a natural thing for states over time to move to the right or move to the left a bit:

Slightly conservative to moderate
Slightly liberal to moderate
Moderate to slightly liberal
Moderate to slightly conservative
etc......

This is a completely normal/natural political occurrence due to migration, economic changes, and a host of other changes.

But the amazing thing about Vermont is that it went from "slightly conservative" to "San Francisco extremist liberal" in one fell swoop, in a "Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200" fashion, and is now one of the most liberal states in America.

I predicted this about 10 years ago, circa 2003/2004 to my gf's lifelong VT-resident father, who claimed that would "never" happen in Vermont. But it was an easy call for me to make. The 'N's in Vermont are very low, so it's easy to push. The entire population influx to the state is in Chittenden County and just outside, and it's not organic growth, but inorganic growth from New York, Massachussetts, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island (a who's who of northeastern liberal states). What's more, the native Vermonter tends to (understandably) have a negative view of politics and often doesn't vote, whereas the recent transplants all vote, and they all vote (D).

Cannonball · Aug 29, 2014

BenedictGomez said:
I predicted this about 10 years ago, circa 2003/2004

It must be exhausting knowing so much more about everything than everyone. Do you ever get worn down by being so much superior than the rest of us? It seems like a huge burden. More power to you for carrying that weight. And nice work on your predictions.... About literally everything.

Edd · Aug 29, 2014

BenedictGomez said:
The 'N's in Vermont are very low, so it's easy to push.

What does that mean? Google isn't helping me.

Cannonball · Aug 29, 2014

Edd said:
What does that mean? Google isn't helping me.

It means that there are only about a half million people in VT. It's well within BG's powers to predict the behavior of such a small group.

BenedictGomez · Aug 29, 2014

Cannonball said:
It must be exhausting knowing so much more about everything than everyone. Do you ever get worn down by being so much superior than the rest of us? It seems like a huge burden. More power to you for carrying that weight. And nice work on your predictions.... About literally everything.

Wow! Someone's cranky and upset.

Edd said:
What does that mean? Google isn't helping me.

It's the number of items in a population or members in a study, etc.. So the smaller the number in a study, the more likely you are to experience outliers or large swings.

deadheadskier · Aug 30, 2014

BenedictGomez said:
In the last 15 to 20 years, Vermont has turned uber-liberal. It's somewhat fascinating.

But the amazing thing about Vermont is that it went from "slightly conservative" to "San Francisco extremist liberal" in one fell swoop, in a "Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200" fashion, and is now one of the most liberal states in America.

I predicted this about 10 years ago, circa 2003/2004 to my gf's lifelong VT-resident father, who claimed that would "never" happen in Vermont. But it was an easy call for me to make. The 'N's in Vermont are very low, so it's easy to push. The entire population influx to the state is in Chittenden County and just outside, and it's not organic growth, but inorganic growth from New York, Massachussetts, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island (a who's who of northeastern liberal states). What's more, the native Vermonter tends to (understandably) have a negative view of politics and often doesn't vote, whereas the recent transplants all vote, and they all vote (D).

You obviously know very little about the political history of Vermont. Your prediction in 2003/2004 was about 50 years too late. Did you just look at Wikipedia and see the domination by the Republican party in politics and assume that the State was conservative? I started living in Vermont full time in 1990 and stayed through 2001, then returned for 2004-2005. It was already the most liberal state in New England during the early 90s and probably decades before then. Prior to the mass influx of out of staters moving to Chittenden County for certain.

Leahy has been around since 1974.

All of the Republican US Senators in Vermont's history dating back to the 50s were as liberal as they come. Prouty, Stafford, Aiken, Jeffords......all of them were RINOS.

**sits back and waits for Benedict Gomez to tell me I'm wrong or at the very at least come up with a clever way of not admitting he is wrong**

VTKilarney · Aug 30, 2014

As often as I agree with BenedictGomez, I am with Deadheadskier on this one. Predicting that Vermont would shift radically to the left in 2003/2004 was like predicting that the Red Sox would win the world series after they were in the clubhouse popping champagne and being fitted for their rings. The shift had already happened. Bernie Sanders was elected mayor of Burlington in 1981. Jim Jeffords switched parties in 2001. He didn't switch because he was good at predicting the future. He switched because he was a dinosaur. Jim Douglas (R) was only elected governor because the Democrats and the Progressives split the liberal vote. He only held on because Vermonters are all but incapable of ousting an incumbent.

The shift in politics had its roots in the counter-culture movement and the construction of the interstate highway system in Vermont. It was in large part a reaction to the fact that cities in New England in the 1970's sucked. (Boston school bussing riots, anyone?) We forget just how bad they were. Second tier cities, such as Lowell or Holyoke, were even worse.

Heck, even the New York Times recognized these changes in 1986: http://www.nytimes.com/1986/01/31/us/vermont-shifting-to-left-in-a-flow-of-newcomers.html Being the New York Times, they were probably giddy with excitement at the prospect, but that's neither here nor there.

Tin · Aug 30, 2014

BenedictGomez said:
In the last 15 to 20 years, Vermont has turned uber-liberal. It's somewhat fascinating.

It's a natural thing for states over time to move to the right or move to the left a bit:

Slightly conservative to moderate
Slightly liberal to moderate
Moderate to slightly liberal
Moderate to slightly conservative
etc......

This is a completely normal/natural political occurrence due to migration, economic changes, and a host of other changes.

But the amazing thing about Vermont is that it went from "slightly conservative" to "San Francisco extremist liberal" in one fell swoop, in a "Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200" fashion, and is now one of the most liberal states in America.

I predicted this about 10 years ago, circa 2003/2004 to my gf's lifelong VT-resident father, who claimed that would "never" happen in Vermont. But it was an easy call for me to make. The 'N's in Vermont are very low, so it's easy to push. The entire population influx to the state is in Chittenden County and just outside, and it's not organic growth, but inorganic growth from New York, Massachussetts, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island (a who's who of northeastern liberal states). What's more, the native Vermonter tends to (understandably) have a negative view of politics and often doesn't vote, whereas the recent transplants all vote, and they all vote (D).

My thought...

4aprice · Aug 30, 2014

deadheadskier said:
You obviously know very little about the political history of Vermont. Your prediction in 2003/2004 was about 50 years too late. Did you just look at Wikipedia and see the domination by the Republican party in politics and assume that the State was conservative? I started living in Vermont full time in 1990 and stayed through 2001, then returned for 2004-2005. It was already the most liberal state in New England during the early 90s and probably decades before then. Prior to the mass influx of out of staters moving to Chittenden County for certain.

Leahy has been around since 1974.

All of the Republican US Senators in Vermont's history dating back to the 50s were as liberal as they come. Prouty, Stafford, Aiken, Jeffords......all of them were RINOS.

**sits back and waits for Benedict Gomez to tell me I'm wrong or at the very at least come up with a clever way of not admitting he is wrong**

Vermont's about to go to the big experiment (read what their health plans are), we shall see how that works out, because (from what I've read) they don't have the money or tax base to do it. Yes DHS they were always that way but BG's point of them swerving more that way is valid. And your own state of New Hampshire (and I've heard lifetime NH residents say this) used to be "Live Free or Die" but its not that anymore. If this is passing for financial wisdom the economics lessons being taught today in our education system leave a lot to be desired. To quote Andrew Cuomo (his words not actions) "The tax payers are broke".

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

Smellytele · Aug 30, 2014

4aprice said:
Vermont's about to go to the big experiment (read what their health plans are), we shall see how that works out, because (from what I've read) they don't have the money or tax base to do it. Yes DHS they were always that way but BG's point of them swerving more that way is valid. And your own state of New Hampshire (and I've heard lifetime NH residents say this) used to be "Live Free or Die" but its not that anymore. If this is passing for financial wisdom the economics lessons being taught today in our education system leave a lot to be desired. To quote Andrew Cuomo (his words not actions) "The tax payers are broke".

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

As a life long resident of NH we have changed faster than VT to the left. Vt was always left leaning and NH was the last NE hold out of the right.

VTKilarney · Aug 30, 2014

One fundamental change is that younger people are either undereducated or they are coming out of college with massive debt. They have a lot of lost years that they can never make up. The cost of higher education is arguably one of the biggest restraints on our economy right now.

BenedictGomez · Aug 30, 2014

deadheadskier said:
You obviously know very little about the political history of Vermont. Your prediction in 2003/2004 was about 50 years too late. Did you just look at Wikipedia and see the domination by the Republican party in politics and assume that the State was conservative? I started living in Vermont full time in 1990 and stayed through 2001, then returned for 2004-2005. It was already the most liberal state in New England during the early 90s and probably decades before then. Prior to the mass influx of out of staters moving to Chittenden County for certain.
Leahy has been around since 1974. All of the Republican US Senators in Vermont's history dating back to the 50s were as liberal as they come. Prouty, Stafford, Aiken, Jeffords......all of them were RINOS.
**sits back and waits for Benedict Gomez to tell me I'm wrong or at the very at least come up with a clever way of not admitting he is wrong**

You missed the entire point of what I wrote. It's not that a shift was occurring (yes, that was obviously happening), it's the dramatic uber-shift that occurred, and how quickly it occurred. And you can sit back in, "I can tell you what the weather was yesterday" fashion and say that that was obvious to everyone - but it simply wasn't at that time. Also, your statement that Vermont was "the most liberal state in New England by 1990" is way off-base, I imagine just looking at election returns would show places like MA and RI etc... were more blue, but I don't think we need to expand the scope of this even further.

4aprice said:
Vermont's about to go to the big experiment (read what their health plans are), we shall see how that works out, because (from what I've read) they don't have the money or tax base to do it.

Vermont is screwed, and the average Vermonter has no idea (I'm sure DHS will say I'm wrong about that too). It's somewhat healthy now, but you can already see what's happening. With the tax & spenders recently in power, budget deficits will continue to increase, as will per capita debt. And all the artificial $83,000/year government jobs they parachute into the state aren't going to fix it. Citizens of Vermont are already some of the heaviest taxed people in America, so the juice is gone from that lemon. There is one unusual trend Vermont is admittedly bucking though - people are still moving there. If you look at map of the highest taxed states in America, people are leaving them, but Vermont is the exception. Though the migration to VT is generally from other, highly taxed NE states, so that might serve to explain that a bit.

BenedictGomez · Aug 30, 2014

4aprice said:
Yes DHS they were always that way but BG's point of them swerving more that way is valid.

And not just a swerve, but a rapid, seismic landslide from being merely normal "left" to "crazy extremist wackadoodle left". Like if a normal Republican area of America just upped and (relatively) quickly started voting like evolution-denying pockets of rural Texas. That change happened quickly. If DHS etc... wants to argue the total change was occurring over years, well, yeah, okay, but the fact is the state went from routine, pragmatic, Bill Clinton Democrat voting behavior to San Francisco Nanci Pelosi nonsense quickly.

4aprice said:
And your own state of New Hampshire (and I've heard lifetime NH residents say this) used to be "Live Free or Die" but its not that anymore.

DHS denies the above.

SEE: Posts 53 & 62

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...age6?highlight=new+hampshire+democrat+liberal

4aprice said:
If this is passing for financial wisdom the economics lessons being taught today in our education system leave a lot to be desired. To quote Andrew Cuomo (his words not actions) "The tax payers are broke".

They teach Economics? Hardly seems it in most places. Frankly, I've always thought you could solve a lot of America's woes if children learned finance/economics from a young age. Politicians wouldnt be able to pull the wool over people's eyes nearly as much.

VTKilarney · Aug 30, 2014

To be fair, Vermont has not run a deficit despite having no Constitutional mandate to avoid a deficit. On the other hand, Vermont has tapped into its rainy day funds and has relied heavily on federal stimulus money - so there is definitely trouble ahead.

Also, Vermont's population has not grown at all since the 2010 census and it is not forecast to be any higher in 2030 than in 2010. And keep in mind that IBM's plant is not what it used to be and will be shuttered sooner than later.

The liberals seem to focus on one thing - the unemployment rate. But that is deceiving. In my nearly 17 years in Vermont, I have seen many good jobs eliminated and numerous lousy jobs crop up. The only private sector that has held its own is the health care industry - except that this is deceiving because the rate of pay in this industry (at least for doctors) has increased at well below the rate of inflation.

The real growth has been in education and government. Vermont's education spending is out of control, and the unions are doing everything in their power to make sure it stays that way.

BenedictGomez · Aug 30, 2014

Smellytele said:
As a life long resident of NH we have changed faster than VT to the left. Vt was always left leaning and NH was the last NE hold out of the right.

NH is/was the Alamo. The result will be the same.

VTKilarney said:
One fundamental change is that younger people are either undereducated or they are coming out of college with massive debt. They have a lot of lost years that they can never make up. The cost of higher education is arguably one of the biggest restraints on our economy right now.

And they also have the highest unemployment rate of any age bracket, increasing total loan value.

College is now a commodity, and the truth is, TOO MANY people go to college. Like the, "everyone must own a home" lie, the "everyone must go to college" mantra is equally absurd. Student Debt has basically been a government fueled bubble.

But speaking of homes, the above is also impairing First-Time Homebuyers, which is a key component and necessary rung for the health of the Real Estate market.

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