Seeded Moguls vs. Natural Moguls

Domeskier · Nov 25, 2014

joshua segal said:
With regard to competition bump skiing, I do think it should be dropped, because the more people who copy that style of skiing, the more dangerous the sport will become to its participants

It's the jumping component of competitive bump skiing that is most likely to result in a blown knee. Absorbing bumps even at world cup speeds is no worse for your knees than sprinting down a track if you do it right.

joshua segal · Nov 25, 2014

Savemeasammy said:
WTF?

I like both seeded and natural bumps. Seeded bumps are more rhythmic, and you can ski them at higher speed. Natural bumps vary in size and spacing, and require a bit of ad-libbing. IMO, spacing is more important than whether a run is seeded or natural. Skiing a bump run where you can link 2 or 3 turns in between moguls is a pisser.

While I agree with what you said above, what does it have to do with competitive bump skiing?

Savemeasammy · Nov 25, 2014

joshua segal said:
While I agree with what you said above, what does it have to do with competitive bump skiing?

Nothing.

Refer back to the title of the thread you started.

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joshua segal · Nov 25, 2014

deadheadskier said:
Hmmm.......interesting.

How are Lindsey Vonn's knees these days? Or was that the course setter to blame?

What was that I read about Bode in the paper just last week? Something about back surgery?

Should their coaches be held criminally responsible for their injuries?

How many people have died during competition throughout competitive bump skiing's history? Yes, zero

And ski racing? several

I get the idea you won't like my answer, but you asked:
1. From what I have observed, I believe that 90% of the most serious racing injuries can be pinned on the course setters rather than the coaches.
2. Competitive bump skiing is too new a sport to have built a necrology list.

Blanton · Nov 25, 2014

There is close to a 30 page pdf floating around the internet of how to construct a course that meets current requirements. It covers how to do this with a machine, as well as being skied in... interesting read for those of you interested.

joshua segal · Nov 25, 2014

Savemeasammy said:
Nothing.

Refer back to the title of the thread you started.

Got it! So I hijacked my own thread

deadheadskier · Nov 25, 2014

joshua segal said:
I get the idea you won't like my answer, but you asked:
1. From what I have observed, I believe that 90% of the most serious racing injuries can be pinned on the course setters rather than the coaches.
2. Competitive bump skiing is too new a sport to have built a necrology list.

Competitive bump skiing has been around for over 30 years. I'd say that's a decent sample size.

and so the blame goes to the course setters? None on the athletes making a bad turn?

What's your take on terrain parks? Get rid of those too?

deadheadskier · Nov 25, 2014

I don't know how we got to competition bump skiing from my desire to see seeded bumps at small ski areas. I haven't competed in a bump competition in 20 years. No desire to. I just like skiing bumps and seeding provides bumps when they would normally not be there. How many people skiing seeded bumps do so in a WC style anyways? 2%? 5%? It ain't much. Must people positively suck at skiing bumps. As has been mentioned, plenty of places with natural bumps from great skiers that have nice zipper lines. Should the ski patrol stand up top and keep the children off of them?

Will Ski Sundown have a World Cup bump training program on Satan's Staircase this winter??? If so, those coaches better lawyer up.

joshua segal · Nov 25, 2014

deadheadskier said:
None on the athletes making a bad turn?

What's your take on terrain parks? Get rid of those too?

In Indianapolis, there is accommodation for "bad turns". Why not on a skiing race course?

Terrain Parks are fine. Not sure why you think I'd object to them,

but Savemeasammy pointed out that the title of the thread is Seeded Moguls vs. Natural Moguls and we are off topic!

deadheadskier · Nov 25, 2014

joshua segal said:
Terrain Parks are fine. Not sure why you think I'd object to them,

Because there is far greater risk of injury in what occurs in a terrain park than on any kind of mogul trail - seeded or natural. Your whole extreme sport / exhibition theory. That applies much more to folks hucking themselves across 50 foot gaps and sliding on a metal rail in a terrain park, than folks who just want to ski some bumps.

Pretty certain your friends in ski patrol where you teach would say, "Yup, terrain parks is way more dangerous than a bump trail."

joshua segal · Nov 25, 2014

deadheadskier said:
Because there is far greater risk of injury in what occurs in a terrain park than on any kind of mogul trail - seeded or natural. Your whole extreme sport / exhibition theory. That applies much more to folks hucking themselves across 50 foot gaps and sliding on a metal rail in a terrain park, than folks who just want to ski some bumps.

Pretty certain your friends in ski patrol where you teach would say, "Yup, terrain parks is way more dangerous than a bump trail."

Danger for an individual jump or trick in a terrain park; or skiing a mogul run isn't the issue I was raising - but I think I've had enough and hopefully, we can move on and agree to disagree.

deadheadskier · Nov 25, 2014

Yeah, no chance of you ever convincing me a bump coach should be criminally liable for their athletes injuries.

gorgonzola · Nov 25, 2014

I think the seeded bumps and modern technique (pre-compression ect) are much easier on the body than old school technique. To lazy to look for youtubes but compare an old glen plake vid to a recent world cup comp, way more body slamming.

I prefer good natural to seeded but was more than happy to have 4 seeded lines at blue opening weekend - sunday we had buttery spring bumps!

Not Sure · Nov 25, 2014

gorgonzola said:
I think the seeded bumps and modern technique (pre-compression ect) are much easier on the body than old school technique. To lazy to look for youtubes but compare an old glen plake vid to a recent world cup comp, way more body slamming.

I prefer good natural to seeded but was more than happy to have 4 seeded lines at blue opening weekend - sunday we had buttery spring bumps!

Looks nice...I have yet to ski at Blue since they started seeding.
It's been a long time since I was in a bump competion , seeded bumps definatley even up the odds.

jack97 · Nov 25, 2014

Domeskier said:
Natural bumps formed by competent bump skiers will resemble properly seeded bumps. The seeds just let the clueless know where they should be turning. That being said, there are only a few places with enough competent bump skiers to allow decent natural bumps to form.

qft...

below is the course at whaleback, i believe its got skied in with turns only. Several years back I was fortunate enough to get some tips from Evan Dybvig, a two time Olympian and freestyle coach at whaleback. He said that his courses are never made by a machine. He sets the turns and has his team follow him to form the moguls.

jack97 · Nov 25, 2014

haha... with all the hyperboles (and yes, that's my word of the week) flying around, I figure I throw this in. Nelson Carmicheal is one of the earliest Olympians to compete in this sport. Wiki said he was born 1965, the vid below was made somewhere around 2013 which puts him around 48, his knees still look fine. I think if he wanted to, he could have used more absorption in that vid but with that bump field and his skill set, it was not needed.

Savemeasammy · Nov 25, 2014

jack97 said:
qft...

below is the course at whaleback, i believe its got skied in with turns only. Several years back I was fortunate enough to get some tips from Evan Dybvig, a two time Olympian and freestyle coach at whaleback. He said that his courses are never made by a machine. He sets the turns and has his team follow him to form the moguls.

IMO - these are basically "seeded" bumps, just done differently. I've skied these bumps at the whale. They are pretty sweet.

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jack97 · Nov 25, 2014

Savemeasammy said:
IMO - these are basically "seeded" bumps, just done differently. I've skied these bumps at the whale. They are pretty sweet.

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I talked to evan at length about this, he hates seeded courses. from what I gather, he has coached the freestyle team since it opened up to last year. so I'm mostly sure he made them by setting the tempo.

Savemeasammy · Nov 25, 2014

jack97 said:
I talked to evan at length about this, he hates seeded courses. from what I gather, he has coached the freestyle team since it opened up to last year. so I'm mostly sure he made them by setting the tempo.

I guess what I mean is that since they were not created spontaneously/naturally by skiers and riders, then I consider them man-made or seeded. I think it's hard to argue that the net result is the same: nice rhythmic lines. Maybe he has a different term other than "seeding", but they definitely aren't natural.

Fwiw, they sometimes ski-in bumps at pats, too. It's a nice change of pace.

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MadMadWorld · Nov 25, 2014

Savemeasammy said:
I guess what I mean is that since they were not created spontaneously/naturally by skiers and riders, then I consider them man-made or seeded. I think it's hard to argue that the net result is the same: nice rhythmic lines. Maybe he has a different term other than "seeding", but they definitely aren't natural.

Fwiw, they sometimes ski-in bumps at pats, too. It's a nice change of pace.

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Agreed. That line looks pretty amazing though!

Seeded Moguls vs. Natural Moguls

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