How warm does it need to be for snow to soften?

xwhaler · Mar 24, 2015

Honest question that I've recently been curious about.
Given the high March sun angle do we need upper 30's to yield something resembling spring turns? Can it be colder?
Assume trails that get direct sun/not shade.

I realize lots of variables at play but given the hardpack we've been skiing on the last 2 wknds I want some softer snow!
This wknd looks to be in the upper 20s up north mid to upper 30's south so trying to position myself so I'm not skiing hardpack frozen groomers in late March.
Bluebird both days

Puck it · Mar 24, 2015

Here you go.

$59e1f7fa3b82384f2581088d0202b5a1.png$

or

$b54dab77179756bf388c12ff74cd0462.png$

with

$153fc2a5a0a49d52dda62d96ae0a293f.png$

the gas constant and

$5a75c6aaa011b76f01e85096dca311d3.png$

the temperature.
Rearranging gives:

$00981a7f8f7988808695dd38dde8eaba.png$

and since

$8f7a852f10e44ef7c72ebba4e7961c74.png$

the heat of fusion being the difference in chemical potential between the pure liquid and the pure solid, it follows that

$adef2006eb20663c4a7301b6be4779b6.png$

Application of the Gibbs–Helmholtz equation:

$615075d4b085d8839fc635c9d0cc2077.png$

ultimately gives:

$44754f6b156aa69ff765388e46c5aa4b.png$

or:

$db4ea84954dcb624120579e1623b0f3f.png$

and with integration:

$05a0bd62b71ef6204f382d227192d1f9.png$

the end result is obtained:

$32ff167be29635be939e0dd1bfa4790f.png$

catsup948 · Mar 24, 2015

AWESOME! Direct sun and high 20's on South and East facing slopes anywhere after the middle of February is going to melt. But it takes a lot if it drops down into the single digits at night which it has been. North facing slopes forget about it until April.

Smellytele · Mar 24, 2015

catsup948 said:
AWESOME! Direct sun and high 20's on South and East facing slopes anywhere after the middle of February is going to melt. But it takes a lot if it drops down into the single digits at night which it has been. North facing slopes forget about it until April.

April is only a week away...

Domeskier · Mar 24, 2015

Puck it said:
Here you go.
$59e1f7fa3b82384f2581088d0202b5a1.png$
or

$b54dab77179756bf388c12ff74cd0462.png$
with
$153fc2a5a0a49d52dda62d96ae0a293f.png$
the gas constant and
$5a75c6aaa011b76f01e85096dca311d3.png$
the temperature.
Rearranging gives:

$00981a7f8f7988808695dd38dde8eaba.png$
and since

$8f7a852f10e44ef7c72ebba4e7961c74.png$
the heat of fusion being the difference in chemical potential between the pure liquid and the pure solid, it follows that

$adef2006eb20663c4a7301b6be4779b6.png$
Application of the Gibbs–Helmholtz equation:

$615075d4b085d8839fc635c9d0cc2077.png$
ultimately gives:

$44754f6b156aa69ff765388e46c5aa4b.png$
or:

$db4ea84954dcb624120579e1623b0f3f.png$
and with integration:

$05a0bd62b71ef6204f382d227192d1f9.png$
the end result is obtained:

$32ff167be29635be939e0dd1bfa4790f.png$

I could be wrong, but I don't think xwhaler was interested in _water_ skiing...

jrmagic · Mar 24, 2015

Bromley would probably be poised to have some of the softest snow around. I think Sunday, north facing slopes will soften a bit in the afternoon with temps creeping up into the mid 30s but not enough to be considered spring conditions.

steamboat1 · Mar 24, 2015

jrmagic said:
Bromley would probably be poised to have some of the softest snow around. I think Sunday, north facing slopes will soften a bit in the afternoon with temps creeping up into the mid 30s but not enough to be considered spring conditions.

Don't forget sunny Spruce.

xwhaler · Mar 24, 2015

jrmagic said:
Bromley would probably be poised to have some of the softest snow around. I think Sunday, north facing slopes will soften a bit in the afternoon with temps creeping up into the mid 30s but not enough to be considered spring conditions.

This is why I was disappointed to hear that Black NH wasn't spinning the double this wknd....their southern exposure would have come in handy and I have a voucher.

mister moose · Mar 24, 2015

xwhaler said:
Honest question that I've recently been curious about.
Given the high March sun angle do we need upper 30's to yield something resembling spring turns? Can it be colder?
Assume trails that get direct sun/not shade.

I realize lots of variables at play but given the hardpack we've been skiing on the last 2 wknds I want some softer snow!
This wknd looks to be in the upper 20s up north mid to upper 30's south so trying to position myself so I'm not skiing hardpack frozen groomers in late March.
Bluebird both days

Seems me it depends on

Ambient temperature
Snow pack temperature
Duration of above freezing temperature
Traffic - exposes colder lower snow with each shaving scrape, more snow warms faster
Solar intensity
Wind

You can add preferred terrain to the list, otherwise ski the Poconos.

It's also common to have firm at the top and soft at the bottom on transition days like these.

Upper 30's for a few hours isn't much to soften cold snow. Farther north will have better snow that got less rain recently, and likely will ski better than southern frozen rain drenched glop.

Not an exact science.

Jcb890 · Mar 26, 2015

This isn't exact at all, but I'll provide an example from last weekend...

Saturday @ Mount Snow it got up to the lower-mid 40's by 11 am or so. Starting around 10 or so, the snow started to soften. In the afternoon, the sun went away and it dipped back down into the mid-30's. The snow was still quite soft.

This Sunday is showing a high of 39-40 and mostly sunny, so I'm thinking the snow should soften up a bit and lead to some nice spring skiing/boarding.

Edd · Mar 26, 2015

xwhaler said:
This is why I was disappointed to hear that Black NH wasn't spinning the double this wknd....their southern exposure would have come in handy and I have a voucher.

If you're up that way, Cranmore is a good bet for soft snow. Lower elevation and its sun-drenched this time of year.

Tan more at Cranmore, they say (they really do).

yeggous · Mar 26, 2015

Edd said:
If you're up that way, Cranmore is a good bet for soft snow. Lower elevation and its sun-drenched this time of year.

Tan more at Cranmore, they say (they really do).

Yes, Cranmore seems like a good idea this weekend. They are low in the valley and southern exposure. They are always a good idea on cold days for the same reason.

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podunk77 · Mar 26, 2015

xwhaler said:
This is why I was disappointed to hear that Black NH wasn't spinning the double this wknd....their southern exposure would have come in handy and I have a voucher.

A chair fell off their double so it's shut down until further notice (I think there was a separate thread on here about it). I skied Black yesterday and the snow was plenty soft!

Bumpsis · Mar 27, 2015

Here's my general rule that I go by: if overnight freeze went into mid 20's, and the day will be mostly sunny with temps going into mid 40's by noon, expect soft surfaces by noon. Follow the direct exposure of the sun for best results. If temps stay below 40*F and the day is sunny, there is still chance of finding something on the softer side by noon. Sun can really work magic even at lower temps in April.
If the day is cloudy, the temps really need to climb into mid 40's - 50's early in the day for the snowpack to soften up by mid day.

steamboat1 · Mar 28, 2015

Everydays a new day, cherish it.

octopus · Mar 29, 2015

xwhaler · Mar 29, 2015

Today was mid 30s to lower 40s with bright sun and I'm not hearing many reports other than hardpack

vonski · Mar 29, 2015

last night it went into the teens, I didn't ski today, but I bet it was harder than Saturday, because Saturday it took awhile to get to low 20's as the low.

180 · Mar 29, 2015

depends on exposure, today Hunter barely cracked freezing, but east faces softened nicely.

benski · Mar 29, 2015

At sugarbush, Lower castlerock, north links, and gate house. All softened up by 3 today. It was around freezing in the afternoon but in the teens overnight.

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How warm does it need to be for snow to soften?

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