USSA Proposes World Cup At Killington - Page 4

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  1. #31
    steamboat1's Avatar
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    Like I said I couldn't give a hoot about the race. I'm just worried about how it will effect other snowmaking operations. The last year they had the DEW Tour at K they never blew any snow at all on Double Dipper or Devils Fiddle. Neither trail officially opened that year although they were poached. Cover was thin on a lot of other areas of the mountain too. Do you know how unsightly it was to ride the Canyon chair Jan-Mar & see a bare DD? Didn't really help their snowmaking reputation that year.

    Not to mention it messed up Bear/Skye Peak for weeks because of trail closures.

    Last edited by steamboat1; Oct 2, 2015 at 10:32 AM.

  2. #32
    What was the course at Mt Ellen? FIS->Rim Run->Lower FIS...it needs to be longer. They did the old timers race at Lincoln Peak down Snowball->Spring Fling.

  3. #33
    Good for Killington! Just hope the November weather doesn't screw them too hard. I'd much rather see WC moguls on Outer Limits


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  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by steamboat1 View Post
    Like I said I couldn't give a hoot about the race. I'm just worried about how it will effect other snowmaking operations. The last year they had the DEW Tour at K they never blew any snow at all on Double Dipper or Devils Fiddle. Neither trail officially opened that year although they were poached. Cover was thin on a lot of other areas of the mountain too. Do you know how unsightly it was to ride the Canyon chair Jan-Mar & see a bare DD? Didn't really help their snowmaking reputation that year.

    Not to mention it messed up Bear/Skye Peak for weeks because of trail closures.
    My hunch is no matter how much snow K makes on Superstar for a worldcup race in November, it will be far less than they'll eventually make on Superstar over the course of the full season for spring operations.

    The Dew Tour was making a massive amount of snow, in an area where they usually wouldn't of made as much, and then don't "use" that snow until it melts out at the bitter end.
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  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by drjeff View Post
    My hunch is no matter how much snow K makes on Superstar for a worldcup race in November, it will be far less than they'll eventually make on Superstar over the course of the full season for spring operations.

    The Dew Tour was making a massive amount of snow, in an area where they usually wouldn't of made as much, and then don't "use" that snow until it melts out at the bitter end.
    +1 no comparison between getting adequate coverage down for a WC race compared with a Dew tour event.

    It's also getting made on the single most used trail on the mountain as opposed to a minimally used half pipe.

    I definitely get the limiting early terrain arguments and potential for bad marketing showing a brown hill with a strip of white. Hopefully mother nature helps out the marketing department.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by drjeff View Post
    My hunch is no matter how much snow K makes on Superstar for a worldcup race in November, it will be far less than they'll eventually make on Superstar over the course of the full season for spring operations.

    The Dew Tour was making a massive amount of snow, in an area where they usually wouldn't of made as much, and then don't "use" that snow until it melts out at the bitter end.
    I've said for years that they need to use superstar for more events. Duh. But certainly not in November. These people are lunatics.
    "For example, I ski without a helmet and with bindings that basically don't release." - Highway Star

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
    I've said for years that they need to use superstar for more events. Duh. But certainly not in November. These people are lunatics.
    And you think Killington has a shot at a WC event any other time of the season?????

  8. #38
    It'd be nearly impossible to host the race at any other time. Every other week is full. The only time they are on this side of the pond are:

    Thanksgiving:
    * Ladies' GS/SL in USA (usually Aspen)
    * Men's DH/SG in Canada (Lake Louise)

    1st weekend December:
    * Ladies' DH/SG in Canada (Lake Louise)
    * Men's DH and 2 of: GS/SG/Combined (Birds of Prey)

    The week prior to Thanksgiving is shuffleing everything over here. Most of the week after is used as the same as the following weekend are technical (GS/SL) races for both men and women.

    Every other week is booked to the end of the calendar. WC racing in New England would only ever be a ladies' event. You can bet my last penney the USSA won't move the Men anywhere ... Birds of Prey is one of the most popular courses for the ski racers. To have a WC race in New England mid-season would mean the Lake Louise and Birds of Prey races get moved as well, **AND** the canceling or reshuffling of many European races with at least one week off mid-season for transit.

    Considering the firepower of Killington and Beaver Creek relative to most European venues, it's better to host them here Early on than making a European race bump theirs up.

    ---

    The Dew Tour is apples and oranges. There they made tons of snow in a place they don't make [relatively] a lot of snow for a one-off event mid-winter necessitating taking the resources from the rest of the mountain. A WC race will require **FAR** less snow and it will be on a popular trail.

    And, don't forget, the racers love nearly ice-hard snow. Even man-made is too dry for them... they inject water and salt the race course to make it hard. This is a very good thing for May or June skiing on Superstar. At that part of the year, the snow is melting from both the top and the bottom. An ice-hard base will be far more durable to melting from below than a normal man-made base.

    Also, don't forget, the limiting factor in early-season snowmaking is air. You'd be nave to think the USSA won't require Killington to have boatloads of compressors on hand to make snow on all of Superstar using their most inefficient gun.

    These ultra-low-E guns are killers. You're underestimating them. They were used extensively in early season snowmaking last year. The ground guns have a maximum flow of 75 gpm which would be at around 0F WB and colder. Generally guns don't get worse than 10-12x in efficiency at 28 WB (which is the upper operating temp of these guns. The Ratnik low-E guns can go up to 29.6F WB!) That means they'd be pumping out somewhere on the order of 7.5 gpm while only using 8 cfm of air. Guess what. You put two of those side-by-side and you get the output of the HKD SV10 or HKD Impulse, which are the "gold standard" now of early-season snowmaking. At that rate you could put them every 5 feet and you'd use less air and make far more snow than before.

    This ain't your father's technology. Air-hogs are quickly going the way of the past.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Newpylong View Post
    If they're unable to make enough snow for the race then chances are they or anyone else wouldn't even be open. It isn't difficult to calculate how many extra man hours and acres to get enough width and base on SS for this based on an average wet bulb percentile for that time period. If they feel the low E guns are not going to cut the mustard you can bet they'll have more rental compressors on hand for the K guns. They know their infrastructure and capabilities better than anyone in the armchair.
    Well, put this to the BS test....

    Superstar is 3400ft long, and roughly 200ft wide, 300ft wide at the bottom. Lets call it 15 acres. They need to put down roughly 5 feet of snow to get the base depths required to groom the hill nice and flat.....trust me, race teams will not be happy if they keep shanking rocks. So that's 75 acre feet of snow. About what it would take to get the northridge triple open and a snowdon route open, with decent but marginal coverage, to the bottom of the K-1. They have to make all this snow by around Nov 20th, the weekend prior, so they can get the hill prepped and allow some training on it.

    Now, without getting into the details of the low-e snowguns, which are FAR less effective than old style snowguns at marginal temps..........what has Killington's past performance been like? Well, some years they do great, and have the snowdon route plus many other trails open by thanksgiving, say 150 acre feet of snow (after melting) by Nov. 20th - this is the max. The average is probably somewhere around 100 acre-ft after melting by Nov 20th, enough to get open top to bottom on the K-1, plus a few more trails. In a poor year, they have just a few trails open off the northridge triple, or are closed entirely, with only 10-20 acre feet of snow on the ground.

    Now what about this race? They are contractually commited to host it and if they can't pull it off, they stand to loose a pile of money. Hopefully they have insurance for this sort of thing. Lets compare senarios based on past winters - each of these happen about a third of the time:

    Cold November: No problem, race happens, skiing for public likely on other trails off superstar chairs, plus K-1, NRT and Snowdon.

    Average November: Race draws most snowmaking resouces for first half of November. Superstar might be open to public for first half of November. Snowmaking on K-1 / NRT starts once Superstar looks to be in good shape, public skiing only on NRT for Thanksgiving weekend (45 minute lift lines).

    Warm, rainy November: Snowmaking focused entirely on Superstar, during small overnight windows of snowmaking, with several rain events melting snow. No public skiing on Thanksgiving weekend.

    So, by my estimates they have a 2/3rd's chance of having either NO public skiing, or skiing on the NRT only for Thanksgiving - both of those are pretty bad senarios.

    This is not even taking into account the chances of an ice storm, major rain storm, or 70F thaw the week of the event.

    EPIC FAIL!
    Last edited by Highway Star; Oct 2, 2015 at 1:00 PM.
    "For example, I ski without a helmet and with bindings that basically don't release." - Highway Star

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by doublediamond View Post
    These ultra-low-E guns are killers. You're underestimating them. They were used extensively in early season snowmaking last year. The ground guns have a maximum flow of 75 gpm which would be at around 0F WB and colder. Generally guns don't get worse than 10-12x in efficiency at 28 WB (which is the upper operating temp of these guns. The Ratnik low-E guns can go up to 29.6F WB!) That means they'd be pumping out somewhere on the order of 7.5 gpm while only using 8 cfm of air. Guess what. You put two of those side-by-side and you get the output of the HKD SV10 or HKD Impulse, which are the "gold standard" now of early-season snowmaking. At that rate you could put them every 5 feet and you'd use less air and make far more snow than before.

    This ain't your father's technology. Air-hogs are quickly going the way of the past.
    This is totally false. Low-e guns are completely ineffective in marginal temps.
    "For example, I ski without a helmet and with bindings that basically don't release." - Highway Star

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