Stenger and Quiros Ousted from Management of Jay Peak and Burke

BenedictGomez · Aug 26, 2016

crystalmountainskier said:
Peter from Lift Blog here. A gondola could have any capacity Jay Peak wanted. Crystal Mt. built one a few years back with only 23 cabins instead of a planned tram. Jay could put 10 gondolas on it and it still might make more sense than dumping $5 million into that tram.

Not only that, but even if any "summit issues" were in fact valid (I dont think they are) you could just terminate the gondola slightly lower (there's a perfect spot for it) and run a relatively inexpensive short double to the summit. IMO, that would be the most efficient layout possible for Jay Peak.

LONGBOARDR · Aug 26, 2016

There was a summit chair at Jay, just before the tram. The skyline double.
I was not there for the old skyline, but friends said it was great for late season turns.

As far as a gondola, good luck. You should ride the tram with 60 people when the wind is cranking holy shi11.
Would not want to try that with a 6-8 passenger box, it would be on wind hold more than the tram.

70-80+ mph winds regularly on the summit there. People think the mountain is bullshi11ing when they shut down the tram and flyer on certain days. I've been there, its an experience

Cheers

doublediamond · Aug 26, 2016

Jay once had a summit double

dlague · Aug 26, 2016

LONGBOARDR said:
There was a summit chair at Jay, just before the tram. The skyline double.
I was not there for the old skyline, but friends said it was great for late season turns.

As far as a gondola, good luck. You should ride the tram with 60 people when the wind is cranking holy shi11.
Would not want to try that with a 6-8 passenger box, it would be on wind hold more than the tram.

70-80+ mph winds regularly on the summit there. People think the mountain is bullshi11ing when they shut down the tram and flyer on certain days. I've been there, its an experience

Cheers

Flyer gets interesting once you get in the open area heading over Alligator Alley - winds can be killer. Two years ago, we were skiing at Jay and we happen to catch the last tram up before they shut it down - holy crap, my wife was terrified. Swaying back and forth over Face Chutes.

LONGBOARDR · Aug 26, 2016

dlague said:
Flyer gets interesting once you get in the open area heading over Alligator Alley - winds can be killer. Two years ago, we were skiing at Jay and we happen to catch the last tram up before they shut it down - holy crap, my wife was terrified. Swaying back and forth over Face Chutes.

Thank you Dave,
That is what is all about at Jay, interesting Skiing:
inefficient lifts
frigid weather
scary lift rides
storms that dump insane snow
west bowl
kick ass stoke

Eb-5 soon in the rear view mirror
NEK rules

56fish · Aug 27, 2016

What LBDR said.....+1

dlague · Aug 27, 2016

LONGBOARDR said:
Thank you Dave,
That is what is all about at Jay, interesting Skiing:
inefficient lifts
frigid weather
scary lift rides
storms that dump insane snow
west bowl
kick ass stoke

Eb-5 soon in the rear view mirror
NEK rules

Yup grew up skiing Jay Peak - even worked their as part of the snowmaking crew for season. The first 3 time I took my wife there the Jay Cloud was in full force and she hated it. There was the full on blizzard, then a freezing drizzle day and the other was really windy. Gotta love it!

BenedictGomez · Aug 28, 2016

LONGBOARDR said:
As far as a gondola, good luck. You should ride the tram with 60 people when the wind is cranking holy shi11.
Would not want to try that with a 6-8 passenger box, it would be on wind hold more than the tram.

As has been said before, the gondola would not go to the very top for this very reason. The "Gondolo + 2 seater combo" takes much of the wind hold problem you speak off entirely off the table.

LONGBOARDR · Aug 28, 2016

BenedictGomez said:
As has been said before, the gondola would not go to the very top for this very reason. The "Gondolo + 2 seater combo" takes much of the wind hold problem you speak off entirely off the table.

I guess don't see how reinstalling a double chair would solve any problem.
The wind is still there and riding an exposed lift up that face would be hell.
The skyline was in operation for only a couple of seasons before it was removed.
I've seen pictures of the skyline with Mt Washington levels of rime on it.
Looks pretty sketchy IMO.
There is a local guy Bob Soden who is the unofficial Jay historian.
Anyhow, hopefully I'll run into him and ask about that time and get a feel for what went on.
There was a lot of change at Jay during that period, Weyerhauser bought the mountain and Walter Foeger left soon after.
In any event, I think the tram and its upgrade is a "fait accompli" unless really deep pockets buy the resort soon.

Cheers and start waxing!

LONGBOARDR · Aug 29, 2016

Drip drip drip, the torture continues

Have we hit bottom yet?

http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/29/eb-5-investor-says-jay-peak-developers-double-sold-hotel-jay/

Tin · Aug 29, 2016

LONGBOARDR said:
Drip drip drip, the torture continues

Have we hit bottom yet?

http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/29/eb-5-investor-says-jay-peak-developers-double-sold-hotel-jay/

Not even close. I like the term "systematic looting", well put.

Smellytele · Aug 29, 2016

LONGBOARDR said:
I guess don't see how reinstalling a double chair would solve any problem.
The wind is still there and riding an exposed lift up that face would be hell.
The skyline was in operation for only a couple of seasons before it was removed.
I've seen pictures of the skyline with Mt Washington levels of rime on it.
Looks pretty sketchy IMO.
There is a local guy Bob Soden who is the unofficial Jay historian.
Anyhow, hopefully I'll run into him and ask about that time and get a feel for what went on.
There was a lot of change at Jay during that period, Weyerhauser bought the mountain and Walter Foeger left soon after.
In any event, I think the tram and its upgrade is a "fait accompli" unless really deep pockets buy the resort soon.

Cheers and start waxing!

The reason the double would help is that the other lift put in be it a gondola, quad or what ever would service almost all other trails except the few coming off the top (face chutes etc.)

bdfreetuna · Aug 29, 2016

I'm not seeing where this not-quite-top gondola would land. The terrain sort of prevents it from going anywhere but the absolute top, unless you want to mess up Tuckerman's chutes. Even then it wouldn't access Vermonter.

Having it go less than fully to the top on the other side is even less possible.

Seems like the Flyer goes as high up as you can with the most access to trails without going all the way.

from_the_NEK · Aug 29, 2016

bdfreetuna said:
Seems like the Flyer goes as high up as you can with the most access to trails without going all the way.

Exactly. The Flyer already serves all of the terrain below the summit. A gondola terminating below the summit (i.e. bottom of Face Chutes) would be redundant and screw up the chute.

The Tram is staying where it is. Get used to it.

doublediamond · Aug 29, 2016

From what I can tell with old trail maps, there was nothing at Tramside until the tram was built. You'd get to the summit via the old Bonny Double, ski down a little, then the Skyline Double. You can kinda see the old lift line from the 3rd to last tower. It started about there.

Vermonter would be accessible because the old Skyline Double terminated at the summit right next to the Tram.

BenedictGomez · Aug 29, 2016

LONGBOARDR said:
There is a local guy Bob Soden who is the unofficial Jay historian.
Anyhow, hopefully I'll run into him and ask about that time and get a feel for what went on.

That would be cool. My WAG is that it was done largely for marketing purposes and the Europhilic ski tastes of the time.

Smellytele said:
The reason the double would help is that the other lift put in be it a gondola, quad or what ever would service almost all other trails except the few coming off the top (face chutes etc.)

Exactly.

I'd say you'd likely see a fairly large reduction in traffic on Northway and Vermonter alleviating the scratched off iceway conditions, and a slight increase to unmarked stuff and Green Beret and Valhalla etc..., which can certainly handle a few more visits without hurting conditions.

It's not going to happen now due to financial reasons, but the entire summit would ski better.

BenedictGomez · Aug 29, 2016

According to the investor and the Digger review, the developers apparently used the money raised from the second group to pay for cost overruns in the project financed by the first group of investors — in particular, the signature water park that went way over budget.

So an initial Ponzi scheme fueled a second Ponzi scheme?

I'm not sure I've ever seen that done before. Impressive.

BenedictGomez · Aug 29, 2016

Stenger and Quiros told investors they were building 46,000 square feet for the Penthouse Suites project and 250,000 square feet for Hotel Jay.State permits, however, show the total square footage of the five-story Hotel Jay, including the fifth floor Penthouse Suites, is 258,300, according to Kirsten Sultan, the Act 250 district commissioner for the Northeast Kingdom.
No one has explained the missing 37,700 square feet. Stenger denies any wrongdoing.

I'm gonna' go with, "really, really, really, really large outdoor patio" for my answer.

LONGBOARDR · Aug 29, 2016

BenedictGomez said:
So an initial Ponzi scheme fueled a second Ponzi scheme?

I'm not sure I've ever seen that done before. Impressive.

This is amazing isn't it, the onion keeps on peeling

What's next? extraterrestrials living under the waterpark

Nothing is off the table at this point WTF

MEtoVTSkier · Aug 29, 2016

Sutton said state officials’ unwillingness to investigate was part of a pattern. Moulton and Raymond did not respond to earlier complaints by investors in the Tram Haus project at Jay Peak about the developers’ conversion of their ownership stakes into loans.
“The state had missed that 45 suites never got built?” Sutton said. “I can sort of understand why the state doesn’t want to look into it because it completely exposes them to being utterly negligent.”

Stenger and Quiros Ousted from Management of Jay Peak and Burke

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