Wildcat Mountain 2016-2017 season thread

deadheadskier said:

Translated: the snowmaking budget is small. Let's be honest, labor costs when it comes to snowmaking is a very small component in comparison to the electricity and diesel costs. I don't expect Sunday River snowmaking budgets for Wildcat/Attitash, but with how slow Attitash was getting going and the amount of prime days Wildcat has skipped out on it's clear that they are not maximizing the resources they have and it shows.

Conditions at Wildcat were perfect for snowmaking today. Great temps, little wind, full pond. It would have been nice to see them blasting all day on Cheetah or Alley Cat to expand terrain for later in the week. The terrain they do have open was skiing absolutely terrible, so guns should be going full bore all night to resurface the problem areas - Middle Lynx, Catapult below the Lift Lion intersection and Bobcat were really bad. Sections of Polecat too. Not a single gun turned on. That's not a good plan for a holiday week when you're likely to see new customers who are ripe for first impressions.

Over at Attitash for the afternoon and there are limited guns going here too.

It's a shame. Both areas have the resources to do so much better, but they choose not to and likely lose a lot of business to competitors.

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It seems like Peaks is treating Wildcat just as another mountain to have on the pass, and they don't really expect half their passholders to actually go there. Also, remember that there is no condos at Wildcat. No condos=No reason in their mind to keep the snow quality good. They will still make money off the daytrippers without refreshing snow quality (the daytrippers will only realize it sucks after they buy a ticket). Basically to Peaks wildcat is useless except as another mountain to market on the pass and to boast how early the season starts by snowmaking on Lynx early season.

I'm not sure I would call Wildcat "useless" for them. I believe they bought it to strengthen their position in the MWV and to be able to maintain a shorter season at Attitash. Wildcat is an extremely efficient ski area to operate. One base area and they only need to operate two lifts and a carpet for 90% of the season. Very little overhead even compared to somewhere like Cannon.

Hopefully they luck out later in the week from Mother Nature. That seems to be what they are gambling on

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DHS - I Wildcat always like this or just this season? Just wondering if budget wise, peak is trying their best this year with the limited financial resources.

mbedle said:

DHS - I Wildcat always like this or just this season? Just wondering if budget wise, peak is trying their best this year with the limited financial resources.

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Always. Snowmaking is not their forte. And they always start late at Attitash.


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But you would think they'd sprinkle a few extra flakes around for vacation week... hmmm?

Groomers skied well first thing this morning. They really could have used a resurface as things skied off pretty quick. Left at noon and migrated down to Attitash....again the skiing is considerably better down there right now IMO. Hopefully some natural comes in soon and Wildcat can do what it does best.

I spent a few years working at Kirkwood and its similar where Vail picked it up on the cheap to diversify that epic option in Tahoe...we were the redheaded bastard step child for Vail Resorts and corporate was insanely tight on spending any kind of money down there....but you better believe rolling into vacation week budgets, overtime ect were ignored as its a crucial time with so many visitors coming to the hill. I guess the thing that makes the cat special(no lodging) is also the thing that holds it back. Either way I love it there.

I've said something similar earlier in the thread but it seems as if they're using the budget of a single ski area to fund two areas. If frugality is paramount, what we're seeing with mountain ops makes sense short term, but not long term. They're risking customer loss, hoping Mother Nature saves the day, perhaps.

MEtoVTSkier said:

But you would think they'd sprinkle a few extra flakes around for vacation week... hmmm?

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Absolutely. I'm used to the short budget there. This isn't much of a change. I guess to be a Cat skier you kind of have to have a love hate relationship with the place. Love the terrain, the Quad, season length, mellow vibe, price and staff. It's just snowmaking ops that can drive you a little nuts at times.

So, basically I'm just venting. It's a holiday week. Everything open today was skiing like garbage by 10AM. Trails like Cheetah and Alley Cat get snow made on them every year. Today was perfect weather to make snow. You would think they would be getting to work to expand terrain and offer something good for holiday skiers later in the week. To Edd's point, it's not just loyalists who ski there and are used to going through lean parts of the season. First time visitors show up too, especially during holidays and you want to put your best product forward to get them to return. You have to earn future jaded loyalists!

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IMO Peaks is running the place like thy want to go out of business, they must be sharing snowmaking personal with Attitash , Not having the guns blasting whenever its cold shows the patron's lack of commitment. They are running the place depending on Mother Nature and with the winds and exposure there that plan is guaranteed to fail. Attitash has huge ability to make snow but since they went to all electric compressors their production is way down. i have not seen portable compressors at Wildcat for a few years do anyone know why except financial reasons. This Business plan will lead only to one direction , Peaks should sell and put their efforts in Attitash. The first year they ran Attitash they blew so much snow it was like they did not know that snow melts, they have the ability just not the resources and/ or the desire

To that point, skier visits have been trending down significantly under Peaks ownership for both Attitash (since 2007)

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/NewHampshire/attitash.php

And Wildcat (since 2010)

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/NewHampshire/wildcatmtn.php

New England Ski History doesn't have enough available data to conclusively show those skiers are choosing other MWV areas. I'd imagine most are choosing VT areas or Sunday River due to larger acreage and more reliable snow. That's a shame. While the MWV areas may lack for size compared to those areas and certainly isn't as blessed with the natural snow VT receives, there's some great terrain available and excellent four season amenities in the Valley to attract vacationers. I'd hate to see the MWV areas become so busy that they resemble the zoos that Southern VT areas are on weekends, but a little more business to add $$$ into snowmaking budgets would be welcome.

But, you have to spend money to make money. If I weren't a passholder and skied ala carte, the choice of skiing in the Valley this vacation week wouldn't be as compelling as other New England destinations. Short of a good storm, I imagine the feedback from those who have chosen to ski in the Valley this year won't be positive with the product up there right now.

Cranmore 27/57 trails open
Attitash 31/68
Wildcat 16/48
Black 22/45

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^After the way this season has started, I'd expect that Wildcat/Attitash will lose market share to Cannon.

I wonder if any Hunter/Mt. Snow skiers venture up to the MWV to give it a shot, and what they think of their "value added" resorts?


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Savemeasammy said:

^After the way this season has started, I'd expect that Wildcat/Attitash will lose market share to Cannon.

I wonder if any Hunter/Mt. Snow skiers venture up to the MWV to give it a shot, and what they think of their "value added" resorts?


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Certainly they will lose some share to Cannon. I am considering it.

Yes, some NY metro skiers will make the trek. Christmas and Presidents week are the two times in winter when I see significant numbers of NY / CT / NJ license plates around the valley.


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deadheadskier said:

To that point, skier visits have been trending down significantly under Peaks ownership for both Attitash (since 2007)

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/NewHampshire/attitash.php

And Wildcat (since 2010)

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/NewHampshire/wildcatmtn.php

New England Ski History doesn't have enough available data to conclusively show those skiers are choosing other MWV areas. I'd imagine most are choosing VT areas or Sunday River due to larger acreage and more reliable snow. That's a shame. While the MWV areas may lack for size compared to those areas and certainly isn't as blessed with the natural snow VT receives, there's some great terrain available and excellent four season amenities in the Valley to attract vacationers. I'd hate to see the MWV areas become so busy that they resemble the zoos that Southern VT areas are on weekends, but a little more business to add $$$ into snowmaking budgets would be welcome.

But, you have to spend money to make money. If I weren't a passholder and skied ala carte, the choice of skiing in the Valley this vacation week wouldn't be as compelling as other New England destinations. Short of a good storm, I imagine the feedback from those who have chosen to ski in the Valley this year won't be positive with the product up there right now.

Cranmore 27/57 trails open
Attitash 31/68
Wildcat 16/48
Black 22/45

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16 trails that is making Ragged look good. Sad - just sad. I have 3 tix I need to use there and I am just sitting on them

Savemeasammy said:

^After the way this season has started, I'd expect that Wildcat/Attitash will lose market share to Cannon.

I wonder if any Hunter/Mt. Snow skiers venture up to the MWV to give it a shot, and what they think of their "value added" resorts?


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Cannon is certainly looking compelling for sure.

I'm sure that Peaks management would probably try and rationalize it by saying if you combine the open acreage of the two areas there is more available open terrain than Cannon has right now. There's some truth to that statement, but how many people are like snoseek and I who are willing to start there day at Cat and then head to Attitash for the afternoon? Very few I'm sure. Also by the time you get to the second mountain, everything is already skied off. That was the case yesterday except for Spillway at Attitash because they had been running guns on it all morning. That skied great and made the drive over worth it.

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IMO early season efforts are critical for pass sales. The reality is that MOST years all resorts will get enough natural to be wide open eventually, but it's that early part of the season where the snowmaking efforts really stand out and make passes worth it. Cannon has been killing it so far. Good for them.


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Agreed. And Wildcat did get off to a decent start with snowmaking. Not as good as Cannon, but pretty good. There's just been days when they could be making snow like yesterday and chose not too. It was almost like they got a bit of help from mother nature and took their foot off the gas. Then boom, a little bad weather and with the missed opportunities the terrain for the holiday week is reduced. At the pace they were going, I was pretty certain they'd have Cheetah and Alley Cat going by now and probably a bit of a refresh on Lynx and Catapult.

I think the fact that they slowed down supports the theory by Brad of sharing snowmaking personnel with Attitash. So a reduced labor budget is the problem between the two areas which is unfortunate because they have the equipment to do more than what they have.

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Another day at the cat.

https://www.mountwashington.org/experience-the-weather/current-summit-conditions.aspx

Wildcat seems to be holding back on snowmaking on cold nighs when warmer weather or possible non frozen precipitation is predicted. That strategy makes sense because they know they will have to resurface when everything becomes bullet proof. Otherwise it is like throwing money around for minimal gain.

That being said the same stories are told over and over again each year regarding Wildcat and Attitash. It is just the way they are. I have never skied Attitash where many runs were not skied off by 10 or 11.

Unlike Attitash, I like Wildcat but I often stay away from Polecat and Lynx after a few runs since the turns on those runs seem to get scraped off quickly.

At this stage it will probably be a long time before I ski at either one if ever again, but I hope they figure out the whole snowmaking deal for all the Peaks Passholders on here.

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deadheadskier said:

But, you have to spend money to make money. If I weren't a passholder and skied ala carte, the choice of skiing in the Valley this vacation week wouldn't be as compelling as other New England destinations. Short of a good storm, I imagine the feedback from those who have chosen to ski in the Valley this year won't be positive with the product up there right now.

Cranmore 27/57 trails open
Attitash 31/68
Wildcat 16/48
Black 22/45

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If it makes Ragged and Wildcat fans feel any better (it won't but misery sometimes does like company ) Pico is 7/57 today. The low trail count is not unusual for Pico. Pico in a normal winter does ok because they get good amounts of natural snow but early season can be tough. Today it was mostly season passholders. Certainly some visitors but I bet they are visiting family, staying with a friend with some connection to the mountain. Most looked very new to the sport so it didn't matter to them how much was open anyway.

I think your point about being a passholder is important. I am wondering if they believe (right or wrong) spend $X=Y visits, spend $1.5X=1.3Y visits. The particular market forces can't be overcome to make the math work so scale down your business model to make a modest margin. If that is the case all you can do is price your season offerings such that they maintain a core group who stay because 1) terrain is great when... 2) proximity to a second/primary home that keeps you fixed to a limited radius 3) desire of loyal core for low crowds. At least for me all three are why I stay at Pico.

Being tied to a big corporate parent can be a blessing and a curse. Pico would have gone NELSAP long ago if it were not for Killington but I bet it rarely makes sense to invest money there vs. other Powdr resorts from a ROI perspective. They price accordingly more or less but I do get a wandering eye on days like today.

I suspect Wildcat may have some similar challenges which is a shame because it is a great mountain. All that being said I would have thought Cannon would simply conceded years ago that Loon was always going to the de facto mountain for day trippers. Cannon was the cheaper alternative for harder core folks looking to avoid crowds. They have blown that idea of out of the water this season with their improvements. If they are successful maybe we can hope others will follow.

On the plus side for Pico today they were handing out chocolate chip cookies at the Golden Express to thank people for skiing there around 11 am. Same guy was thanking each passholder by first name earlier in the day as he scanned you in. It wasn't another trail but I took the cookie anyway and i am back again tomorrow :wink:.

medfordmike said:

I think your point about being a passholder is important. I am wondering if they believe (right or wrong) spend $X=Y visits, spend $1.5X=1.3Y visits. The particular market forces can't be overcome to make the math work so scale down your business model to make a modest margin.

Being tied to a big corporate parent can be a blessing and a curse. Pico would have gone NELSAP long ago if it were not for Killington but I bet it rarely makes sense to invest money there vs. other Powdr resorts from a ROI perspective. They price accordingly more or less but I do get a wandering eye on days like today.

On the plus side for Pico today they were handing out chocolate chip cookies at the Golden Express to thank people for skiing there around 11 am. Same guy was thanking each passholder by first name earlier in the day as he scanned you in. It wasn't another trail but I took the cookie anyway and i am back again tomorrow :wink:.

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Diminishing returns are definitely the name of the game these days in the ski industry. Blowing a ton of snow is just not worth it for many smaller resorts. Some resorts are also definitely trying to rebrand themselves (e.g. Ragged as being the learn to ski capital and affordable).

Your last point about the cookies is a very good one. It is very very important to remember for resorts with a large corporate parent that the people on the ground and even in the management of the resort are NOT the people making many of the financial decisions. The managers are going to be given tough budgets to work with by the corporate higher ups.

Everyone on the ground at a ski resort is generally going to care a great deal about their skiers, and sometimes feel just as frustrated as we do by budgetary restraints.