Sustainability of Night Skiing?

cdskier said:

Larger areas also need to utilize the entire 4PM-8AM time-frame for grooming operations often times. Having to work around night skiing would complicate that a bit. Then since you would only be able to light some trails at larger areas, you'd also have the added challenge for ski patrol of closing off the unlit trails to keep people off them at night. Completely agree for most larger areas it doesn't make sense. For the smaller mountains near lots of people, it absolutely can make great economic sense though. School programs can be a good money maker.

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Completely agree!

Putting a trail back together with a cat is often way more than just put the tiller down and lay some cord. Lots of time consuming snow pushing to "replace" what the general public pushes downhill while skiing/riding is done daily (and not seen by the general public) plus from a snowmaking standpoint, a completely closed trail/ski area gives the crew a chance if needed and some mobile guns are available to drag the guns and their hoses out across the trail while it's closed overnight to more efficiently put some snow where it's actually needed rather than just where the throw of the gun and the wind take it

As for closing time, 8PM is too early in my book.

Many people don't get out of work until 5:00 PM. By the time they are skiing it's pushing 6:00 PM. Perhaps even later for some by the time they grab the kids and get a bite to eat. Even if I want to ski for just a couple of hours, I am much more inclined to go if the mountain is open until 9:00 PM rather than 8:00 PM. There is a big difference mentally knowing that I can get three hours in rather than two - whether or not I actually use that extra hour.

Depends on the locale of the mountain and its size. If it's a small hill that depends on school groups, etc then 8 PM is typically fine. If it's a larger hill that has more variety and can actually recoup somewhat opening later, then later works.

My point was that mountains that close at 8:00 PM may lose customers even if those customers really weren't going to ski after 8:00 PM.

I wonder if anyone has studied this. I suppose if your bread and butter is groups it really doesn't matter. They are going to come no matter what.

But if I couldn't get to a mountain until 6:30, I wouldn't bother to show up if they closed at 8:00. In today's busy world there have to be many people in that boat. But again, maybe they are a small minority when you factor in groups.

VTKilarney said:

My point was that mountains that close at 8:00 PM may lose customers even if those customers really weren't going to ski after 8:00 PM.

I wonder if anyone has studied this. I suppose if your bread and butter is groups it really doesn't matter. They are going to come no matter what.

But if I couldn't get to a mountain until 6:30, I wouldn't bother to show up if they closed at 8:00. In today's busy world there have to be many people in that boat. But again, maybe they are a small minority when you factor in groups.

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I agree with this. At CM where I night ski as part of an adult race league the races don;t start until 7 and usually finish up around 8. Sometimes we'll forgo hitting the bar afterwards in exchange for some more runs if the snow is good.
Many folks I see are rushing to get there and get booted up to be in line for the 7pm race start.

I think a 9pm closing makes the most sense. 10 seems sort of late but perhaps works better on wknds.

xwhaler said:

I agree with this. At CM where I night ski as part of an adult race league the races don;t start until 7 and usually finish up around 8. Sometimes we'll forgo hitting the bar afterwards in exchange for some more runs if the snow is good.
Many folks I see are rushing to get there and get booted up to be in line for the 7pm race start.

I think a 9pm closing makes the most sense. 10 seems sort of late but perhaps works better on wknds.

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I agree too. I originally thought 9 was even too early. I've found I'm usually satisfied at about 9:15 starting around 6, but 9:00 is very much still worth it. Few times I've skied when the place was only open until 8 was a pain in the butt. Like others said though, if the groups are where the money is, then individuals coming from work are not the major concern.

VTKilarney said:

My point was that mountains that close at 8:00 PM may lose customers even if those customers really weren't going to ski after 8:00 PM.

I wonder if anyone has studied this. I suppose if your bread and butter is groups it really doesn't matter. They are going to come no matter what.

But if I couldn't get to a mountain until 6:30, I wouldn't bother to show up if they closed at 8:00. In today's busy world there have to be many people in that boat. But again, maybe they are a small minority when you factor in groups.

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An example - Keystone closes at 8. They are certainly not targeting the Denver population that are getting out of work unless someone is hardcore about getting a couple hours in. They have enough of a vacation community to justify it. Anyone that is visiting Summit County that wants to get some night skiing in will turn to Keystone as they are the only night real skiing in Summit County and on the Epic and Epic Local Passes. Plus Breckenridge lift tickets allow you to head over to Keystone for night skiing as well. Their hours for night skiing are 3-8 on days that they have night skiing. Having lots of condos and the Village there helps too. They offer up to 289 acres of night skiing with many runs over two miles long and Schoolmarm which is 3.5 miles as well as a tubing park at the summit which overall is pretty large. Looking at the schedule below it is clear that they are targeting busier periods. Beyond skiing that ends at 8 they have businesses that stay open until 10 pm like Kickapoo Tavern.

Completely different demographic, but a lot of resorts in Korea are open until 2:00am or later. They shut down for a couple hours at various times during the day and night for grooming. Kind of like an ice rink. I guess when you're located two hours or less from 20 million people and your have maybe 30 trails (if that), night skiing makes sense.

Mount Saint Anne in Quebec is a decent night skiing destination.

They have a night only pass that targets people from quebec, they are open until 9 PM. They have maybe a half dozen trails and their park. They are open top to bottom though, so there are some 2000 foot vertical runs to be had.

At 3 - 4 PM they actually regroom their night skiing trails, they'll close 'em down one at a time repush the snow and then move to the next trail. It's funny waiting with a crowd of 50 people waiting for a rope to drop at 6:30 PM to rip some fresh corduroy.

I've night skied there on 3 or 4 trips, it was never super busy, but normally pretty steady. It was nice skiing all day, taking a break at 4 - 5 to get some supper and then skiing for another 3 hours at night.

All the areas close down their night skiing in mid March for 2 reasons.
1. ski season starts slowing down
2. when the spring sun warms the hill and it refreezes at night, it makes for some REALLY scary conditions. Trails that look nice are sheer ice.

You need the right demographics. As was mentioned, Jiminy did well because they had a lot of college and school groups there during the week. I ran our college ski club and we sent a full 40 person bus on the 1.25 hour drive twice a week and were on the slopes 6-9. I would venture its more popular during the week than the weekends, hence why it may seem dead to some people who only go on the weekends. Likewise, when I was a kid, mount southington used to be packed at nights with local ski clubs and kids.

skithetrees said:

You need the right demographics. As was mentioned, Jiminy did well because they had a lot of college and school groups there during the week. I ran our college ski club and we sent a full 40 person bus on the 1.25 hour drive twice a week and were on the slopes 6-9. I would venture its more popular during the week than the weekends, hence why it may seem dead to some people who only go on the weekends. Likewise, when I was a kid, mount southington used to be packed at nights with local ski clubs and kids.

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They are defiantly buisier midweek then weekends. Holiday time might be close, but still less.

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(rather than start a new thread I first searched on night skiing and found this conversation)

Last night we went over to Ski Sundown in New Hartford CT for a birthday party. We live about 20 minutes away and while I learned here as a kid, the last time I actually skied here was the mid '90's and I really was surprised how much they had invested in the area since then. I have 4 kids and they have been coming here with their school ski clubs regularly over the last few years and while I have been to SS to chaperone or a summer brewfest, I figured last night I should finally buy a ticket and check out the old trails of my youth.

Wow was it fun and something I regret not doing sooner. Sure your up and down in10 minutes but the sheer joy of skiing at night, in 55 degree weather, under the lights, with your friends? It all came flooding back to me.

Oh the thought of being 13 again and barely passing for cool on the best of days....but skiing was the great equalizer. I would never go to the school dances but I would go to SS for night skiing and maybe, just maybe feel like I had "a chance" at standing out.

To the point of sustainability, word is this was their best years in many and I agree a posters point made elsewhere that we cant get overly exited about the fortunes of our local hills considering their unique popularity during this last year. For my 14 yr old daughter, skiing at Sundown was a big deal in her age group this year But I really encourage anyone who hasnt night skied in years, has a few hours left before the end of the season, to grab your kids or a friend and head over to SS (or another night skiing location) for a few hot laps on warm spring night under the stars. Makes you feel like a kid again....

our Vail corporate overlords in Broomfield, CO felt that night skiing wasn't all that worth it as they cut the south central PA Vail hills back from 7 days of night skiing to 3. Was this a COVID cost savings measure? Was it a way to drive people to more expensive, than our old night pass, options? Probably Yes and Yes.

How busy does/did Roundtop get for night skiing? I don't know anyone who night skis there.
Night ticket at roundtop is $60 while $25-$40 will get you a night ticket just about anywhere else in the state. Night ticket for a few hours of night skiing at roundtop is $60 while a weekend all day ticket it $80? lame
My high school went/still goes all the way to the poconos, over twice the drive, because they offer much better group rates and better skiing anyway. Those places are packed friday nights.

That being said you don't need a huge hill to have fun night skiing, Bear Creek and Spring Mountain do a fine job, and the middle school club here goes to Bear Creek, but pricing yourself right out of the market will certainly kill the group sales. I do realize that DC and Baltimore especially don't really have other options for night skiing but do schools down there even have ski clubs/do night group skiing? And if the choice is between like bowling or skiing friday night, a $60 ticket makes bowling look a whole lot more attractive

Another thing to consider is all these kids that go night skiing at Blue and Bear Creek and such, these are the people that will be buying tickets and passes in a few years - and if they liked Blue and Bear Creek, they will keep going back to Blue and Bear Creek. Not a whole lot of people get hooked on skiing anymore if they haven't tried it by the time they are in high school and lots of first timers in ski club. If you don't offer affordable night skiing / group sales to the Baltimore/DC market then there are that many less broke teenagers and college kids that will be spending money skiing in that market in a few years. My parents got hooked on skiing from cheap night skiing passes and school clubs, and me and my friends that ski likewise did so.

Monday would be fairly dead, but there would be people skiing. It would incrementally increase in business. as the week went on. Pre-Vail there were more discounts. And while I think the day ticket or even the night ticket rate sucks its not out of line for most places in the state. Hell 7 Springs is like $90+ on the weekends.

jimmywilson69 said:

our Vail corporate overlords in Broomfield, CO felt that night skiing wasn't all that worth it as they cut the south central PA Vail hills back from 7 days of night skiing to 3. Was this a COVID cost savings measure? Was it a way to drive people to more expensive, than our old night pass, options? Probably Yes and Yes.

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It is interesting. The only Vail location in Colorado that offers Night skiing is Keystone. We skied it several limes and it is pretty fun. The acreage under lights is fairly large and larger than many NE ski areas. They light up 289 acres and is top to bottom on the first peak. They have runs at night that are over 2 miles long. In some respect it is a decent idea since it is easy driving from Denver to and from since you start skiing at 3 and go until 8. It is not cheap $103. I do have to say it is not as lit up as night skiing in NE.

jimmywilson69 said:

our Vail corporate overlords in Broomfield, CO felt that night skiing wasn't all that worth it as they cut the south central PA Vail hills back from 7 days of night skiing to 3. Was this a COVID cost savings measure? Was it a way to drive people to more expensive, than our old night pass, options? Probably Yes and Yes.

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I grew up at places with Night skiing in New York. Nights were always the busiest times aside from weekends because of all the kids going after school or adults after work. A total goldmine. Not surprising to see Vail cut it though. The calculators in Colorado probably came up with that decision

jimmywilson69 said:

our Vail corporate overlords in Broomfield, CO felt that night skiing wasn't all that worth it as they cut the south central PA Vail hills back from 7 days of night skiing to 3. Was this a COVID cost savings measure? Was it a way to drive people to more expensive, than our old night pass, options? Probably Yes and Yes.

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I have skied the majority of Monday and Thursday evenings since the 2nd week of January this season at Mount Southington in CT as the assistant Highschool ski team coach for my kids high-school.

Even without the formal after school ski programs (and school busses of kids) there as have been in the past, the parking lots have been pretty darn full. And considering that our training and racing time slot involves both the last hour of Southington's afternoon ticket session block and the start of their evening ticket session (which includes a healthy quantity of adult "beer league" racers), I fully suspect that the generally smaller ski areas, often located closer to larger population bases who have a robust night skiing scene, lost out this season if they scared back.

Heck, one of my college friends, who has run the after-school program at the middle school she teaches at in the Hartford area the last decade or so, told me when I saw her at Southington a few nights this season, that even though they (the school she teaches at) couldn't have a formal after school ski program this season, that a group of between 20 and 50 parents via social media coordination, organized a weekly informal after school ski program where numerous parents would drive their kids to Southington and coordinate ahead of time the purchase of lift tickets for their kids and themselves as well!

And I suspect that this coming Monday evening when my kids and I and the head coach of the high-school team and his 2 kids head to Southington for 1 more race for the CT Highschool Open Championships, that on what is potentially Southington's last Monday night of operations for the season that the parking lots will be pretty full again.

I just recently was talking with the teacher who runs ski club for my old high school - ski club is actually through parks and rec rather than the school due to liability or whatever, but the buses still run from the school. He said parks and rec told him, guess we can't do ski club this year and he was like, uh, why can't we? So anyway ski club still happened for them, they just had to not fill up the buses quite as much as usual.

And bear creek, blue, and spring mountain have sold out pretty much every friday night this year.

At Shawnee Peak in Me Monday night madness and LLBean Friday night family night sells out every week. Wednesday and Thursday nights are adult beer league racing and Tuesday nights are usually school races of some sort. I don't ski on Saturday nights but suspect that they are busy then as well. They have been busier this year than ever. I don't know about profits with f&b and bar limited but definitely up with ticket sales.