Why arent they all "demo" bindings?

Jully · Jul 25, 2017

deadheadskier said:
Not sure, but I do know others who feel the way I do. Being elevated off the ski makes a big difference to me in how a ski feels. Weight is a factor as well. That is why you see racers using heavy riser plates, but you don't see bump skiers using them.

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I notice a difference for sure, especially on ungroomed terrain.

Glenn · Jul 25, 2017

I feel the ski more with a traditional binding vs a system binding.

big_vert · Jul 25, 2017

The RIGHT adjustable binding do not weight more than basic clamps, not do they affect the feel in any way.

The Griffon demo (all the Marker demos) has 1 (yes, ONE) additional plastic mounting plate under the toe (the regular has rear plate already), and is virtually identical to the non-demo in ramp angle, elasticity, weight and function.

Ability to sell easier, mountability changes for friends and family, opportunity to mount boot fore-aft to try different locations, ability to change for new/different bsl's all are advantages for an adjustable binding.

jack97 · Jul 25, 2017

BenedictGomez said:
IIRC, they tended to only be offered on lower-end beginner and intermediate skis? Seems like children's skis would be a good candidate too given how fast kid's grow, though of course if they grow too fast, they would need new skis anyway.

The integrated binding was introduced on intermediate to advance skis as well. Along with low end skis that would have engulf 70 to 80% of the market, yet it never took off. The remaining 20 to 30% tends to be more fickle. I know where I want to mount my bindings on to the skis. I have use the same ski model for the past tens years. As for the sallies I like the light weight but I can feel the difference between them to the look/rossi.

xwhaler · Jul 25, 2017

Heavier bindings and get raised up off the ski with a heavy race plate is my preference for beer League gate racing.

Anything else and I'm wanting to be as close to the ski as possible

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Not Sure · Jul 25, 2017

jack97 said:
. I never liked the old markers b/c they would pre release on me in the bump field. .

Yes they got me more than once! I cranked the DIN but still had issues . Went to Dukes and did'nt mind the extra stack height , Very solid feel and no play to speak of with the rails .

machski · Jul 26, 2017

I like K2 chargers for hard snow days. You can get them flat or integrated. The interesting thing now with the integrated is no connection plate between to and heel. Each locks on its own point with no added height and minimal weight. Compared to the older K2/Marker integrations, I feel the new setup gives better feel and edge engagement.

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Scruffy · Jul 27, 2017

Demo bindings have gotten a lot better in recent years. The Tyrolia attack demo series are very good, and mount just about as flat as the non- demo Tyrolia, and they are rock solid, that could not be said of demo bindings of yesteryear.

Hawkshot99 · Jul 27, 2017

Scruffy said:
Demo bindings have gotten a lot better in recent years. The Tyrolia attack demo series are very good, and mount just about as flat as the non- demo Tyrolia, and they are rock solid, that could not be said of demo bindings of yesteryear.

We switched our demo fleets over to the Tyrolia Attack demo bindings 2 yrs ago. Most of it was based on price as all skis included we have around 350 pairs of skis in the fleets(Not all have the Attacks)
We have had ALOT of problems with the Attacks. Snow gets in the tracks and customers walking in with bindings that will not stay to the proper size has become a regular occurrence. We are switching to Salomon Wardens for this winter.

Prior to the Attacks we used Griffons and Squires depending on what level of binding was used. We got away from these mostly based on the amount of effort it takes to adjust for BSL. Also we have gotten away from Marker bindings as a hole even on the retail side. If you look closely at the toe of a boot that has skied a bunch of days in a Royal Family binding, you can see indentations on the plastic from where the rollers sit. As these indentations deapen the setup will not release properly in a twist. You can also often feel flat spots forming on the rollers, again preventing proper release.

Hawkshot99 · Jul 28, 2017

I am not a fan of demo bindings on a flat ski, and my opinion varies on a system.

A flat ski with a demo binding will weigh more(some worse then others), stands higher than the flat version, and as they are skied more and more I have never seen one that does not develop wobble to them.
On System skis, I am a fan of Rossi, Fischer, Atomic, and Salomon systems(I am sure I am missing some as well). These I have found to be easy, to relatively easy to adjust but yet stay rock solid with use. Marker can go both ways on a system. On the K2 they were good when new, but develop alot of play with use.

I dont see ease of adjusting as a positive to me personally owning a Demo binding. My skis are not something I will lend to people for the most part. There are a few exceptions to that, but those exceptions and I share our boot size so not a issue.
When I have sold my used skis it has never affected me selling the skis.

cdskier · Jul 28, 2017

I don't see a need to have a demo binding. Ease of adjusting the binding size was never a concern I even thought about when purchasing skis. I don't buy new boots that often, so there's rarely a need to adjust my bindings once I buy the skis. My dad bought new boots this season and his bindings didn't need to be re-mounted (although the shop did say they were close and had just enough adjustment room to avoid a re-mount).

The only person I would lend my skis to would have been my dad, but he has the same skis that I do now, so that's a moot point.

BenedictGomez · Jul 28, 2017

Hawkshot99 said:
Also we have gotten away from Marker bindings as a hole even on the retail side. If you look closely at the toe of a boot that has skied a bunch of days in a Royal Family binding, you can see indentations on the plastic from where the rollers sit. As these indentations deapen the setup will not release properly in a twist. You can also often feel flat spots forming on the rollers, again preventing proper release.

Yikes. That sounds like a class action lawsuit waiting to happen.

Hawkshot99 said:
When I have sold my used skis it has never affected me selling the skis.

I buy and sell used skis just about every year. Long story short, I find you dont lose money (sometimes I make a small profit) when you buy/sell used skis quickly (i.e. dont let them sit 5 years) should you not like them, and I like trying things without all the restrictions & limitations of "demo'ing" skis. Anyway, I find it easier to sell demo skis than traditional mounts as many people don't want to redrill them either due to the additional cost involved, the time involved, or the perception that's out there that redrilling will weaken the skis. If your experience is different, I really suspect it's because your access to buyers is a lot better than the average bear.

deadheadskier · Jul 28, 2017

I don't think many skiers are into the rapid turn over of gear via the used market like you are BG. People buy stuff all the time, but it seems more with a goal of quiver building than out of boredom with what they have. This isn't everyone, but most people I ski with take this approach.

I don't really see the point in selling a set of skis that I really love just to save a few bucks over time. I'm usually pretty hard on my gear and a set of skis will last 100+ days before a noticeable drop in performance from the bases, edges or flex. I'll just hold onto them and run them into the ground unless they really no longer fit the performance / snow conditions I'm really after.

For a daily driver set of skis, I'm looking to get 100-150 days out of them and then they either become rock skis or I give them away to friends. I spent $175 on my current daily drivers brand new. So, when I'm through with them, they've cost me $1.25 a day to use. Not really worth it to turn them over at this point. I actually wish I had purchased a second pair of the same model to cellar for use when my current pair are toast. I feel ski technology has basically matured and won't improve much moving forward. Then specialty focused skis like powder skis I'll hold onto for like 10+ years as they are only seeing 10 uses or less per season. Not much of a market for skis that old.

jack97 · Jul 28, 2017

^^^ I would say you along with me are in that ~ 20% fickle population. That said, I'll still say that their is a high turn over in ski gear even when it means nothing to us. Ski manufactures introduce new models just to boast up sales mainly due to existing stocks being stale for several years. Seems all ski manufacturers introduce new models every two to four years even when the old skis designs are perfectly fine for the slopes. I still don't get the rocker rage going on in the North East other than it gives a new feel on the slopes.

Hawkshot99 · Jul 28, 2017

BenedictGomez said:
I buy and sell used skis just about every year. Long story short, I find you dont lose money (sometimes I make a small profit) when you buy/sell used skis quickly (i.e. dont let them sit 5 years) should you not like them, and I like trying things without all the restrictions & limitations of "demo'ing" skis. Anyway, I find it easier to sell demo skis than traditional mounts as many people don't want to redrill them either due to the additional cost involved, the time involved, or the perception that's out there that redrilling will weaken the skis. If your experience is different, I really suspect it's because your access to buyers is a lot better than the average bear.

I don't buy any used skis, but do sell alot personally. I build a new quiver every year because my job allows it. I private sell almost all the skis rather than selling at tent sales.
-The amount a person is willing to pay for a used ski usually tops out at $2-250 at a ski swap sale, regardless of if it's a $1200 ski used 10 times in mint shape.
-The skis belong to me, so I don't want to put a shop tag on the skis, to get a higher price and deceive people.

I have been successfully selling on eBay lately. Gets allot of people to see the gear. I usually post stuff on here, but have been told my prices are high, but i end up selling for more else where. I sold 1 pair of skis on here a yr or 2 ago. The person who bought them was very happy and even gave me a extra $50 over what we agreed on because of condition.

I currently have some Blizzard Brahmas and Soul 7's for sale....[emoji11]

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BenedictGomez · Jul 28, 2017

deadheadskier said:
I don't think many skiers are into the rapid turn over of gear via the used market like you are BG.

I'm sure you're right about that, but it's not about "turn over" for me, it's that I like to try a lot of things. For instance, even though I demo quite a bit, my daily drivers have remained Line Prophet 90s for about 4 seasons now.

Hawkshot99 said:
I currently have some Blizzard Brahmas and Soul 7's for sale....

That's what I just bought that spurred me to post this thread!

Paid about $300 for them with shipping, they arrived today. Even better condition than the pics allowed. Edges are sharp, so I think they were recently done, though they're DRY, so I'll need to wax them. Also, the DIN is bizarrely low at 6.5'ish, so I'll need to have them adjusted, but no big deal given how cheap they were.

abc · Jul 29, 2017

jack97 said:
^^^ I would say you along with me are in that ~ 20% fickle population.

That's the best answer to the original question of "why aren't they ALL demo bindings"!

If only 20% of the skiing population are fickle, the rest of the ski owners don't intend to sell their skis before the end of the ski's life. So what benefit to have demo binding on the skis? Why should the majority 80% of skiers pay the weight AND cost penalty of demo binding???

Logically, anyone buying new skis but planning (or even thinking) they're likely to sell it in a year or two MAY want to put demo binding on it. The rest of us? Don't even think about it. There's NO benefit till you sell the skis, and plenty of drawbacks up front.

The irony is, those who turn over a lot of skis tend to buy most of them used, rather than new. So you're stuck with the choice of bindings of the first owner. But as outlined above, 80% of us don't want to pay for and carry the extra weight of the demo binding for no benefits to US.

That said, I'll still say that their is a high turn over in ski gear even when it means nothing to us. Ski manufactures introduce new models just to boast up sales mainly due to existing stocks being stale for several years. Seems all ski manufacturers introduce new models every two to four years even when the old skis designs are perfectly fine for the slopes. I still don't get the rocker rage going on in the North East other than it gives a new feel on the slopes

When people buy their 2nd or 3rd new skis every couple years, a lot of those 2-year old skis were never sold. They just sit at people's basement as part of the quiver, until they realize they haven't used it for the next 2 years. But by then, the 4 year old skis is no longer worth much in the used market. So it stays in the basement.

Scruffy · Jul 29, 2017

Hawkshot99 said:
We switched our demo fleets over to the Tyrolia Attack demo bindings 2 yrs ago. Most of it was based on price as all skis included we have around 350 pairs of skis in the fleets(Not all have the Attacks)
We have had ALOT of problems with the Attacks. Snow gets in the tracks and customers walking in with bindings that will not stay to the proper size has become a regular occurrence. We are switching to Salomon Wardens for this winter.

Thanks for the heads up. I've personally never had a problem with them and own a few pairs of skis with the attack demo bindings that I ski hard, and sometimes in no fall zones, so I'll have to check that.

bdfreetuna · Aug 2, 2017

Maybe if a universal system is adapted by enough ski manufacturers in the future we'll have demo binding capabilities by default.

Until then the addition of extra movable parts presents durability issues in some cases; they can develop play which reduces response and feedback and there is additional weight.

Give it a decade maybe we'll have the best of both worlds.

benski · Aug 2, 2017

bdfreetuna said:
Maybe if a universal system is adapted by enough ski manufacturers in the future we'll have demo binding capabilities by default.

Until then the addition of extra movable parts presents durability issues in some cases; they can develop play which reduces response and feedback and there is additional weight.

Give it a decade maybe we'll have the best of both worlds.

The interface is universal. The people are not, which leads to different din's and boot sizes.

Why arent they all "demo" bindings?

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