Mount Snow: Inside Track

jaytrem · Mar 12, 2018

Saturday seemed no worse than many others to me. Probably due to lack of parking. Crowds just showed up earlier than normal. If you don't mind the fixed grips they were all basically ski right on. Only difference was we didn't get out usual early morning short line high speed lift rides.

Not sure what all the people that tried to arrive after 8:30 did. Mountain may have lost a lot of money due to lack of parking.

SIKSKIER · Mar 12, 2018

Odd question to ask how do you mitigate crowds.Any ski area would love to have too many people.I know I wouldnt ski at a place with big crowds but obviously the crowds of people do otherwise.The only answers are to put more people up the hill with lifts or limit ticket sales.I think Snow is more than enough uphill capacity so tickets sales would be the only one in my mind.

jaytrem · Mar 12, 2018

SIKSKIER said:
Odd question to ask how do you mitigate crowds.Any ski area would love to have too many people.I know I wouldnt ski at a place with big crowds but obviously the crowds of people do otherwise.The only answers are to put more people up the hill with lifts or limit ticket sales.I think Snow is more than enough uphill capacity so tickets sales would be the only one in my mind.

Crowds are mostly at the high speed chairs. If they build more it should spread the people out. Not sure I'll be happy about it or not when it happens. North Face used to have a lot more lines before all the high speeds showed up on the front. So it's kinda nice that it's quieter over there these days.

Jcb890 · Mar 12, 2018

BenedictGomez said:
Babyboomers getting too old and/or departing this earth?

I mean, that's what I've been hearing for the last 20 years, that once the babyboomers cant ski anymore, the ski industry is going to be in trouble. Hopefully that's a failed futurist prediction, but I feel like I've been hearing that mantra forever.

Yeah, that's not happening. I see tons of kids out there skiing/riding or learning to do so. Neither sport is dying. The odds are much better of the climate dictating a change to our sport rather than demographics or people just giving up on the sport.

People thinking crowd-control is somehow going to get better in New England are dreaming. The sports' popularity isn't really going away, it doesn't seem like there's less of the younger crowd, actually, it seems like the crowds are generally younger, NOT older. So, that prediction is likely not only wrong, but crowds will continue to grow as younger generations continue the sport and continue reproducing.

There are 2 answers/options to lowering crowds, both are very simple in principal. It is the "HOW" that is the hard part.

1 - More acreage: More space to put people or for people to go means you can put more people on the summit or on a lift as opposed to having lift lines. Right now, most of the mountains can't really increase up-hill capacity by much more. The trails are already crowded as it is.
2 - Less people: The resorts don't want this and it doesn't seem like skiing or snowboarding is dying off any time soon, so there is going to be MORE people in the future, not less.

cdskier · Mar 12, 2018

SIKSKIER said:
Odd question to ask how do you mitigate crowds.Any ski area would love to have too many people.I know I wouldnt ski at a place with big crowds but obviously the crowds of people do otherwise.The only answers are to put more people up the hill with lifts or limit ticket sales.I think Snow is more than enough uphill capacity so tickets sales would be the only one in my mind.

Yea...we had this same discussion not too long ago in another thread about other ski areas. There's really no easy way to "mitigate crowds". Busy days are going to be busy. If you increase uphill capacity, then you make the downhill experience more crowded. If you limit sales, you lose out on potential revenue and could also make some people not want to come back. Sort of a catch 22 type of scenario for many mountains. Piss people off with big crowds or piss people off by turning them away.

slatham · Mar 12, 2018

SIKSKIER said:
Odd question to ask how do you mitigate crowds.Any ski area would love to have too many people.I know I wouldnt ski at a place with big crowds but obviously the crowds of people do otherwise.The only answers are to put more people up the hill with lifts or limit ticket sales.I think Snow is more than enough uphill capacity so tickets sales would be the only one in my mind.

You can always limit ticket sales.

Jcb890 · Mar 12, 2018

jaytrem said:
Crowds are mostly at the high speed chairs. If they build more it should spread the people out. Not sure I'll be happy about it or not when it happens. North Face used to have a lot more lines before all the high speeds showed up on the front. So it's kinda nice that it's quieter over there these days.

More high speed lifts = more people at the summit/going downhill at the same time.

The main face can't really handle that much more downhill traffic though, in my opinion. On a busy Saturday, Long John is almost un-skiiable/un-rideable. There's people EVERYWHERE. Same goes for a trail like Loon's Grand Junction. Putting more people on the trail only solves 1 issue while making others worse.

drjeff · Mar 12, 2018

bdfreetuna said:
It's a fair question to ask.. and should have been already if we didn't kiss reps asses whenever they come on here...

What is Mount Snow's future strategy to mitigate crowds? Crowd control. It's simply not a viable weekend destination for discerning skiers after November.

Is the strategy to just get crowded out on weekends, make a bunch of $, and anyone else can come week days or go elsewhere?

Just curious. IMO now that you've got snowmaking improved, this is clearly the biggest weakness.

If nothing changes you'll still see me on the season margins. I guess it's OK if you're crowded with casual skiers/riders on weekends main season? From a business model I see no problem with that, a constant supply of future customers, if they decide to stay.

Curious on Mount Snow's thoughts on that.

The reality is, there's not much that they can do, since to help mitigate the crowds, you really need more acres, and they're pretty well built out, short of what would likely be a LONG, costly process, with uncertain results to try and get approval from the US Forest service to either expand out past the Trials on the North Face or expand around the Sunbrook pod. The often mentioned "buy the Hermitage and connect the 2 is just way too costly now, and with the same uncertain outcome from the forest service about trail expansion to connect the 2.

Mount Snow, in all, likelihood, will be replacing/upgrading some lifts in the coming years. Their master plan calls for Sunbrook to become a highspeed lift (quad?6 pack? bubble or not? all TBD), as well as some lift changes in and around the Discovery Center learning area and the Sundance Lodge area once that is redone. Alos, it is likely in the not too distant future that some lift changes will be happening around the Carinthia base area once that new lodge is complete and likely more people use that lodge as their starting/ending point of the day. Even if and when those lift upgrades happen, I'm not sure that uphill capacity will change that much, as without more acres to sprtead people on, increasing lift capacity will just increase on hill density.

As an aside, and now that next years pass prices are out, there are many of us, who are long time Mount Snow season passholders and if not second home owners in the area, are driving there most every weekend they're open for the entire season, who frankly would like Peak to help manage crowds by adding a few hundred dollars to the Explorer Pass price and/or go back to the way it was a few seasons ago where unless you bought Peak's top pass product, you didn't get unlimited days at Mount Snow. I know that these last few sentences are going to get the negative comments flying here. I also know that I have heard this topic discussed, with the willingness to pay more, by many core families at the mountain who do spend a great deal of money at Mount Snow every year via season passes, youth program costs, equipment purchases at Mount Snow, Food and Beverage purchases at Mount Snow, bringing many non Peak pass people up to the mountain every season who then buy lift tickets, lessons, food and beverage, etc, etc, etc

Lastly, as someone who because of my kids racing schedule, does ski Stratton a half dozen days a year, and then also drives through Stratton on my way to other mountains my kids are racing at many other days a year. Frankly, a crowded day at Mount Snow isn't much different than a crowded day at Stratton. LOTS of people are drawn to them for very good reasons in their own view. If you know how to manage your way around the mountain, you can get a good number of runs in with fairly minimal lift lines. And I can honestly say that the longest liftline I waited in all season thus far, was at Magic yesterday about 11:30 as my wife and I were heading up the Black on our way to watch our kids second race run. The line for the Black appeared shorter than the Red when we headed out of the Lodge at about 11:20 - we loaded the Black at 11:35. You learn to handle things, and sometimes you just have to brave a line, and remember that BIG lines, while an annoyance for sure, are a GOOD thing for the ski industry as a whole

drjeff · Mar 12, 2018

WJenness said:
That base area is not a good look.

But this is what my friend and I experienced on Friday:

It was just so good...

This is an on map glade, wonder if it looks familiar to anyone here.

Looks like you were either getting ready to do some maple sugaring or listen to Pink Floyd

Jcb890 · Mar 12, 2018

drjeff said:
The reality is, there's not much that they can do, since to help mitigate the crowds, you really need more acres, and they're pretty well built out, short of what would likely be a LONG, costly process, with uncertain results to try and get approval from the US Forest service to either expand out past the Trials on the North Face or expand around the Sunbrook pod. The often mentioned "buy the Hermitage and connect the 2 is just way too costly now, and with the same uncertain outcome from the forest service about trail expansion to connect the 2.

Mount Snow, in all, likelihood, will be replacing/upgrading some lifts in the coming years. Their master plan calls for Sunbrook to become a highspeed lift (quad?6 pack? bubble or not? all TBD), as well as some lift changes in and around the Discovery Center learning area and the Sundance Lodge area once that is redone. Alos, it is likely in the not too distant future that some lift changes will be happening around the Carinthia base area once that new lodge is complete and likely more people use that lodge as their starting/ending point of the day. Even if and when those lift upgrades happen, I'm not sure that uphill capacity will change that much, as without more acres to sprtead people on, increasing lift capacity will just increase on hill density.

As an aside, and now that next years pass prices are out, there are many of us, who are long time Mount Snow season passholders and if not second home owners in the area, are driving there most every weekend they're open for the entire season, who frankly would like Peak to help manage crowds by adding a few hundred dollars to the Explorer Pass price and/or go back to the way it was a few seasons ago where unless you bought Peak's top pass product, you didn't get unlimited days at Mount Snow. I know that these last few sentences are going to get the negative comments flying here. I also know that I have heard this topic discussed, with the willingness to pay more, by many core families at the mountain who do spend a great deal of money at Mount Snow every year via season passes, youth program costs, equipment purchases at Mount Snow, Food and Beverage purchases at Mount Snow, bringing many non Peak pass people up to the mountain every season who then buy lift tickets, lessons, food and beverage, etc, etc, etc

Lastly, as someone who because of my kids racing schedule, does ski Stratton a half dozen days a year, and then also drives through Stratton on my way to other mountains my kids are racing at many other days a year. Frankly, a crowded day at Mount Snow isn't much different than a crowded day at Stratton. LOTS of people are drawn to them for very good reasons in their own view. If you know how to manage your way around the mountain, you can get a good number of runs in with fairly minimal lift lines. And I can honestly say that the longest liftline I waited in all season thus far, was at Magic yesterday about 11:30 as my wife and I were heading up the Black on our way to watch our kids second race run. The line for the Black appeared shorter than the Red when we headed out of the Lodge at about 11:20 - we loaded the Black at 11:35. You learn to handle things, and sometimes you just have to brave a line, and remember that BIG lines, while an annoyance for sure, are a GOOD thing for the ski industry as a whole

A 6-pack over on Sunbrook? Talk about overkill. I enjoy the Sunbrook terrain and its a nice escape from the crowds, but no way is a 6-person chair needed over there for 900 vertical feet. A HSQ would be nice though.

BenedictGomez · Mar 12, 2018

Jcb890 said:
The sports' popularity isn't really going away, it doesn't seem like there's less of the younger crowd, actually, it seems like the crowds are generally younger, NOT older. So, that prediction is likely not only wrong, but crowds will continue to grow as younger generations continue the sport and continue reproducing.

I guess it depends what age you're calling "younger", but I certainly dont consider myself "young" anymore (Generation X), and yet I feel a healthy number of people in the lift lines & lodge are clearly older than me. So maybe it's my perception & I'm wrong, but I feel the mean skier age is a number that is not "young" per se.

drjeff · Mar 12, 2018

Jcb890 said:
More high speed lifts = more people at the summit/going downhill at the same time.

The main face can't really handle that much more downhill traffic though, in my opinion. On a busy Saturday, Long John is almost un-skiiable/un-rideable. There's people EVERYWHERE. Same goes for a trail like Loon's Grand Junction. Putting more people on the trail only solves 1 issue while making others worse.

Not necessarily - many resorts will install a high speed lift, that has the exact same capacity as a fixed grip lift, just a shorter ride time.

For example, the Bluebird has it's chairs spaced at 9 seconds, which puts 400 chairs an hour through the summit terminal for a theoretical capacity of 2400 people an hour if all 400 chairs were fully loaded AND the chair didn't stop or slow down for a full hour (I honestly doubt such an hour has EVER happened since the Bluebird was installed

) The Grand Summit Express, Canyon Express and Nitro Express use 6 second spacing, which puts 600 chairs an hour through the summit terminal for the same theoretical 2400 people per hour capacity as the Bluebird has. The old summit local triple that the Bluebird replaced had a capacity of 1800 people per hour. In theory, if Mount Snow ordered more chairs for the Bluebird and reprogrammed the chair for the same 6 second spacing it uses for most of it's other lifts, the Bluebird could have a 3600 people per hour capacity.

Just because it's a high speed lift doesn't always mean that it's a higher capacity lift than a fixed grip, just a shorter ride time once you load it

bdfreetuna · Mar 12, 2018

Killington has done it right IMO. Of course they get more crowds than anyone in VT, at least as of last season. But I can go there on a Saturday mid season, and as long as I don't arrive late, expect a decent parking spot (at choice of 5 base areas).

Lines might be bad at one or two key lifts but mostly short/no lines.

If you can't add more base areas or more lifts, and have limited acreage... what do you do?

Add woods. People take longer to ski woods and it spreads them out. If people take 2x as long to ski woods as trails that means the woods skiers are riding the lift half the time.

Obviously its not a direct equation but adding LOTS of woods is something Mt Snow is ready for and lacks in thus far, easiest way to spread out traffic on the hill.

I will never buy a $1000 seasons pass when I can buy a $29 Ski and Ride New England Card and some $40 VT passes so if raising that price makes a difference, idk, that's a selfish one lol

drjeff · Mar 12, 2018

Jcb890 said:
A 6-pack over on Sunbrook? Talk about overkill. I enjoy the Sunbrook terrain and its a nice escape from the crowds, but no way is a 6-person chair needed over there for 900 vertical feet. A HSQ would be nice though.

Apparently any lift upgrades over in Sunbrook will come concurrently or after the snowmaking is expanded to 100% in that pod, and likely some type of yurt with some food and beverage service and bathroom facilities are added by the base of the Sunbrook and Bear Trap lifts to make it more of a pod that people want to take some laps in (and hence take crowds off other parts of the mountain) rather than just use it as a pass through type part of the mountain as a good deal of people do now...

Jcb890 · Mar 12, 2018

BenedictGomez said:
I guess it depends what age you're calling "younger", but I certainly dont consider myself "young" anymore (Generation X), and yet I feel a healthy number of people in the lift lines & lodge are clearly older than me. So maybe it's my perception & I'm wrong, but I feel the mean skier age is a number that is not "young" per se.

At 33, I hardly consider myself young or part of that demographic. Yes, there is a good amount of people older than I am in the line and lodge. However, there is also a huge amount of people in line and lodge that are younger than I am, or around the same age and getting their kids into it, etc. I think what you are speaking of is a myth. The ski/snowboard industry as a sport is going nowhere, even when the Babyboomers are gone.

drjeff said:
Not necessarily - many resorts will install a high speed lift, that has the exact same capacity as a fixed grip lift, just a shorter ride time.

For example, the Bluebird has it's chairs spaced at 9 seconds, which puts 400 chairs an hour through the summit terminal for a theoretical capacity of 2400 people an hour if all 400 chairs were fully loaded AND the chair didn't stop or slow down for a full hour (I honestly doubt such an hour has EVER happened since the Bluebird was installed ) The Grand Summit Express, Canyon Express and Nitro Express use 6 second spacing, which puts 600 chairs an hour through the summit terminal for the same theoretical 2400 people per hour capacity as the Bluebird has. The old summit local triple that the Bluebird replaced had a capacity of 1800 people per hour. In theory, if Mount Snow ordered more chairs for the Bluebird and reprogrammed the chair for the same 6 second spacing it uses for most of it's other lifts, the Bluebird could have a 3600 people per hour capacity.

Just because it's a high speed lift doesn't always mean that it's a higher capacity lift than a fixed grip, just a shorter ride time once you load it

That is a good point. It would be great to have a HSQ over on Sunbrook to have a shorter lift ride. I still think a 6-person chair over there is just not needed. It would be great if there was more vert. over there, 900' isn't all that much. Do you think it justifies a 6-person chair?

bdfreetuna said:
Killington has done it right IMO. Of course they get more crowds than anyone in VT, at least as of last season. But I can go there on a Saturday mid season, and as long as I don't arrive late, expect a decent parking spot (at choice of 5 base areas).

Lines might be bad at one or two key lifts but mostly short/no lines.

If you can't add more base areas or more lifts, and have limited acreage... what do you do?

Add woods. People take longer to ski woods and it spreads them out. If people take 2x as long to ski woods as trails that means the woods skiers are riding the lift half the time.

Obviously its not a direct equation but adding LOTS of woods is something Mt Snow is ready for and lacks in thus far, easiest way to spread out traffic on the hill.

I will never buy a $1000 seasons pass when I can buy a $29 Ski and Ride New England Card and some $40 VT passes so if raising that price makes a difference, idk, that's a selfish one lol

Don't get me wrong, I love Killington, its probably my favorite VT mountain, but I have seen lines at Ramshead and for the Gondola that rival any other mountains. Pretty much all of the mountains you can manage your way to find less-crowded lifts. On a holiday weekend/nice Saturday in New England, all the major resorts are busy and have lines.

I do agree/buy into the woods idea with Mt. Snow. I do not agree it will help that much though. For selfish reasons though, I would love some nicely-spaced trees at Mt. Snow, most of them are too tight to be fun for me.

I think Peak is in the sweet-spot right now. High enough price to make money, but not too high to drive people away. Much higher and it would drive people away. All of the other passes have much more high-profile big-time mountains on them. Mt. Snow regulars would probably like that, but I doubt the Peak company would.

BenedictGomez · Mar 12, 2018

bdfreetuna said:
Add woods. People take longer to ski woods and it spreads them out. If people take 2x as long to ski woods as trails that means the woods skiers are riding the lift half the time.

I doubt that helps much.

I mean, what percentage of skiers ski the woods? I have no idea, but I suspect it's very small, maybe 10%? If that.

GregoryIsaacs · Mar 12, 2018

BenedictGomez said:
I doubt that helps much.

I mean, what percentage of skiers ski the woods? I have no idea, but I suspect it's very small, maybe 10%? If that.

And this is why I love skiing there so much.

jaytrem · Mar 12, 2018

I seem to recall 6 seaters and 4 seaters don't have much difference in price. The big advantage is you can get a family of 5 or 6 on the same chair. Want lower capacity, just buy less chairs.

cdskier · Mar 12, 2018

BenedictGomez said:
I doubt that helps much.

I mean, what percentage of skiers ski the woods? I have no idea, but I suspect it's very small, maybe 10%? If that.

I think it depends on the mountain. At some mountains I would certainly put the percentage higher, others lower. But I also agree that it wouldn't necessarily help much because even at resorts where tree skiing is a "big" thing, chances are it is still only being done by a minority of the people on the mountain any given day.

benski · Mar 12, 2018

Jcb890 said:
A 6-pack over on Sunbrook? Talk about overkill. I enjoy the Sunbrook terrain and its a nice escape from the crowds, but no way is a 6-person chair needed over there for 900 vertical feet. A HSQ would be nice though.

I think they should move the base lower down to increase capacity, They could add another 1/3 of a mile and a trail further to the right, but probably stick with a high speed quad.

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