Mogul Skis

eatskisleep · Dec 23, 2017

Always enjoyed skiing bumps. Getting more "into it" recently. Started thinking of picking up a dedicated bump ski.

I'm 5'-8" and about 165-175lbs, I consider myself a pretty aggressive skier. I currently ski on a pair of G3 Saints at 176cm for my non-powder and non-tele days.

What size bump ski should I be looking at?

I saw the K2 244's, Dynastar Twister's, and the Elan Bloodline's . Are they any good? Trying not to break the bank here either... Open to used if needed.

Thanks in advance and Merry Christmas!

:spread:

Griswold · Dec 23, 2017

I think the 173 k2's or the 175 twisters would be perfect. I'm slightly taller than you and have the 173 k2s and really like them. Have also skied the twisters and I really couldn't tell much difference. You can find the k2s on eBay for under 500 and that includes the look pivot 14 bindings, which is a great deal.

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Lefty4514 · Dec 23, 2017

Nice! Hopefully mogul skiing makes a comeback. I’m just under 5’10 and around 170 pounds and have 175 twisters. It’s so hard to demo mogul skis so I’m not sure if longer would be better, but I’m happy with the size. I also got a new pair on eBay with look pivot bindings for under 500 bucks total ( in April a few years ago so not sure what the price is now). I prefer them over my Volkl kendos except for in powder or heavy wet snow. Barely feels like you have any skis on your feet they are so light.

BushMogulMaster · Dec 23, 2017

How aggressive do you ski bumps? And for that matter, HOW do you ski bumps? The K2s are alright... they're a little soft, and they don't hold an edge particularly well. I skied K2 bump skis for a while, but find them too squirrelly at this point. I'd consider the Twisters a step up from the K2s. They're the ski of choice among most serious recreational bump skiers. If you want to take it to the next level of serious bump skiing, ID One and Hart are the way to go. They're expensive, but they perform. You can occasionally find good deals on eBay. Shaman is another option now as well, though I've not skied on them. I've been skiing the same pair of Hart F17 WC skis for 8 or 9 years now. No joke. Well more than 100 days on those poor things. They don't have the rebound they used to have, but they still rip, and they hold an edge way better than K2 or Twister.

As for size... 170-175cm would be about right, I think. And don't forget to couple those bump skis with some good, short poles. At 5'-8", you probably need 40" poles. And Look Pivot bindings are ideal. But most importantly, get a binding that can be mounted flush on the skis without a lifter plate.

And if anyone needs proof that 8 year old F17s can still perform, here's the evidence (I'm in the retro red Fate getup at 0:51, 1:51, etc.):

I'm happy to be back east. But I do miss being close enough for whimsical day trips to WP/MJ.

mister moose · Dec 24, 2017

BushMogulMaster said:
How aggressive do you ski bumps? And for that matter, HOW do you ski bumps?

Exactly.

When you watch bump skiers, and look at their skis, you'll see at least 4 distinct categories.

Category 1. Competition bump skiers. These skiers ski the zipperline, and are on a modern dedicated bump ski.

Category 2. Old stylers on 200cm straight skis, fewer turns, more thumping.

Category 3. Recreational advanced bump skiers. These skiers are also in the fall line, but with more tail swishing and less absorbtion. Less impact, they rarely take the full mogul head on, but can when necessary. Typical skis are 80 to 95 cm freeride or twin tips.

Category 4. Dolphin turners. These skiers are carving wide arcs down bumps, noticeably different than zipperlining. No pivot slips at all. They come at the trough from an entirely different angle, crossing the fall line more but with far less skidding. Skis are stiff tortionally, more sidecut, and frequently are sub 85mm. Turns are aggressively unweighted, with air over the mogul top not uncommon.

Identify your style, then consider your skis.

(Disclaimer: not all skiers are limited to 1 style, or type ski.)

Lefty4514 · Dec 24, 2017

mister moose said:
Exactly.

When you watch bump skiers, and look at their skis, you'll see at least 4 distinct categories.

Category 1. Competition bump skiers. These skiers ski the zipperline, and are on a modern dedicated bump ski.

Category 2. Old stylers on 200cm straight skis, fewer turns, more thumping.

Category 3. Recreational advanced bump skiers. These skiers are also in the fall line, but with more tail swishing and less absorbtion. Less impact, they rarely take the full mogul head on, but can when necessary. Typical skis are 80 to 95 cm freeride or twin tips.

Category 4. Dolphin turners. These skiers are carving wide arcs down bumps, noticeably different than zipperlining. No pivot slips at all. They come at the trough from an entirely different angle, crossing the fall line more but with far less skidding. Skis are stiff tortionally, more sidecut, and frequently are sub 85mm. Turns are aggressively unweighted, with air over the mogul top not uncommon.

Identify your style, then consider your skis.

(Disclaimer: not all skiers are limited to 1 style, or type ski.)

I say who cares how you ski. You want some mogul skis then just get them. To me, you don’t have to be a pro to ski on dedicated mogul skis. As long as you like moguls they will make you better and they are still fun on groomers ( at least mine are). Also sounds like you already have a pair that fits into the other “categories”. Good advice on the poles as you will want short poles, otherwise your pole plants will be over your head when your knees are bent.

p_levert · Dec 24, 2017

mister moose said:
Exactly.

Category 3. Recreational advanced bump skiers. These skiers are also in the fall line, but with more tail swishing and less absorbtion. Less impact, they rarely take the full mogul head on, but can when necessary. Typical skis are 80 to 95 cm freeride or twin tips.

(Disclaimer: not all skiers are limited to 1 style, or type ski.)

Senor Moose, any specific recommendations for the Cat 3 bumper?

bdfreetuna · Dec 24, 2017

Lefty4514 said:
I say who cares how you ski. You want some mogul skis then just get them. To me, you don’t have to be a pro to ski on dedicated mogul skis. As long as you like moguls they will make you better and they are still fun on groomers ( at least mine are). Also sounds like you already have a pair that fits into the other “categories”. Good advice on the poles as you will want short poles, otherwise your pole plants will be over your head when your knees are bent.

Fair point but I think mister moose's post should be regarded, and is the best post yet in this thread overall.

I am a Cat 3 bump skier who occasionally zipper lines and tends to ski Cat 4 style when the bumps are smaller or more random.

Cat 1 and Cat 2 bump skiers would want a much different ski than me. Cat 3 and Cat 4 bump skiers can use 1 ski quiver all-mountain skis.

deadheadskier · Dec 24, 2017

I can't comment on which specific skis, but it sounds to me like the OP wants a ski that is best designed for ripping a zipper.

I've only skied one pair of modern bump skis, a set of Harts. The performance was stunning compared to any other kind of ski. The equivalent would be skiing a true race ski down some gates and comparing it to other kinds of skis. Night and day.

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Lefty4514 · Dec 24, 2017

bdfreetuna said:
Fair point but I think mister moose's post should be regarded, and is the best post yet in this thread overall.

I am a Cat 3 bump skier who occasionally zipper lines and tends to ski Cat 4 style when the bumps are smaller or more random.

Cat 1 and Cat 2 bump skiers would want a much different ski than me. Cat 3 and Cat 4 bump skiers can use 1 ski quiver all-mountain skis.

Moose’s post is well thought out, but sorry I disagree. Having skied on both mogul skis and all mountain skis I can’t see a scenario where mogul skis wouldn’t be better in moguls (except if there is fresh snow on them). Doesn’t matter if you are Mikael Kingsbury or just starting. They are lighter, narrower, quicker, more flexible (usually in the tips), and still hold a good edge when well tuned, and all categories of skiers would benefit from using them. I do agree with the third post (Mogulmaster) that there are definitely differences in different mogul ski brands which should be considered, but at that point it probably takes a certain level of “category 1” skier to even notice.

bdfreetuna · Dec 24, 2017

Lefty4514 said:
Moose’s post is well thought out, but sorry I disagree. Having skied on both mogul skis and all mountain skis I can’t see a scenario where mogul skis wouldn’t be better in moguls (except if there is fresh snow on them). Doesn’t matter if you are Mikael Kingsbury or just starting. They are lighter, narrower, quicker, more flexible (usually in the tips), and still hold a good edge when well tuned, and all categories of skiers would benefit from using them. I do agree with the third post (Mogulmaster) that there are definitely differences in different mogul ski brands which should be considered, but at that point it probably takes a certain level of “category 1” skier to even notice.

I can think of one situation, being that the skier doesn't plan on skiing moguls the entire day.

If you're like me, you might start the day ripping groomers while they're fresh and move on to bumps later in the day, but mostly ski trees whenever possible.

Hard to ski a zipper line in the trees for very long, so that's one of the reasons I tend towards #3 and #4 techniques. Zipper lining is a lot of fun while it lasts, but I can't think of a time that's amounted beyond more than 10% of a total ski day. And if I'm being honest probably a lot less than that.

If mogul competition is your thing, completely different advice applies.

Lefty4514 · Dec 24, 2017

bdfreetuna said:
I can think of one situation, being that the skier doesn't plan on skiing moguls the entire day.

If you're like me, you might start the day ripping groomers while they're fresh and move on to bumps later in the day, but mostly ski trees whenever possible.

Hard to ski a zipper line in the trees for very long, so that's one of the reasons I tend towards #3 and #4 techniques. Zipper lining is a lot of fun while it lasts, but I can't think of a time that's amounted beyond more than 10% of a total ski day. And if I'm being honest probably a lot less than that.

If mogul competition is your thing, completely different advice applies.

Who wouldn’t want to ski moguls all day? Haha true and Merry Xmas to all.

SkiFanE · Dec 24, 2017

Admittedly I've never tried mogul skis. But I've been skiing on SL skis since my 185s in 80s. But my go to ski 50 ski days/year are SL skis. I spend all my time in bumps. And it's a rare NE ski days when you can zipper down bump lines all day. Yesterday there were a few worthy lines but quite a variety of pow with a crust, pow over ice and decent bumps. I find the SL skis grab and carve suddenly when I need (I am not afraid of thin cover lol). But when you want to zipper you basically use your ski as a flat board and don't want an edge - so I can do that just fine with my SLs. I don't have the budget or time to demo or really care to. I ski my gear to crap lol, my back edge is hanging out - need it trimmed off. My bases look like a skating ring after a period of hockey lol. I generally get 2 sharpens a year and maybe a wax or two. But truthfully if a ski day requires razor edges, I'll stay home. So I'm a great bump skier who knows little about gear - except after 30 years of bumps I'll always be on SL skis (brand doesn't seem to matter). my current volkls are rails on groomers and have lots of pop out of turns (tons of fun in bumps with sharp turns and popping in/out of bumps - I can cut bumps smaller and avoid the icy spots and stay on snow because they turn in a dime. ). Pick up a pair of used SL race skis and give a whirl.

Not Sure · Dec 24, 2017

"200cm's" In moguls ? Yikes. I had some K2 712's at 195cm years ago and they let me know they didn't like moguls . I like the old bump vids on YouTube .

I think the old straight skis demanded you pay 100% attention .

Not sure I fit in any category as I like to push my speed in the moguls but find zipper lines boring as It doesn't take near the skill to pick your way through a random field . I haven't skied a dedicated ski but still on all mountain old Rossi B'2 .

deadheadskier · Dec 24, 2017

195-200cm was pretty standard length back in the day for competition bump skiing. I did a few USSA competitions in high school in the early 90s. I skied on a pair of 197cm Salomon Force 9 3S. That was a pretty popular ski at competitions along with Rossi 4M & 7M.

As Moose stated correctly, the style was different. Less snow contact, more of a pounding down the line approach with less absorption. Most folks (not all) who skied that style back then have adapted to the modern style with more snow contact and greater absorption. They don't make a ski today comparable to what was used back then.

I would defer to BMM on the differences between current manufacturer designs. He has his own website dedicated to all things moguls. The overwhelming opinion of the forum members over there is that any modern bump ski will out perform non-bump skis. Having had my eyes opened by the Harts last year, I can see why that's the belief of many bump nuts.

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Whitey · Dec 25, 2017

Siliconebobsquarepants said:
"200cm's" In moguls ? Yikes. I had some K2 712's at 195cm years ago and they let me know they didn't like moguls .

I cut my teeth in the bumps in the mid to late 80's on 204CM skis when I ski bummed at Sun Valley for a couple of winters. ALL we skied was bumps, 1st run to last. Those were the days when it was "go long or go home" on straight skis. I think I may have actually topped out in length with a 207 ski but shockingly I snapped the tail of one of those off in the bumps a few weeks after I got them. We killed it in the bumps even with long, straight skis. But back then we were young, stupid, and able to eject from our skis, tomahawk down the slope with gear spraying everywhere and then just get up, dust the snow off, and start looking for your gear. I suspect that if I were able to transport back in time and give that 22 yr old version of me a pair of 185CM shaped/cambered skis - after a couple of days that version of me would be very happy. Or maybe that version of me would just go back to the 204's because that version of me was kind of a dumb-a$$ and also stubborn.

I don't have much of a point here other than if you are a strong and aggressive enough skier you can make anything work in the bumps. It's a matter of finding the ski that's right for you. So as many have said in this forum and I have echoed in my experience - you gotta demo skis. Wait until there are some decent bumps to ski and have a plan on what skis you want to try and then demo them. You'll find the right one for you that way. Whether you are a 1 ski quiver or a 2-3-4-etc ski quiver skier also makes a huge difference in your needs and what you should be considering.

Not Sure · Dec 25, 2017

Whitey said:
I cut my teeth in the bumps in the mid to late 80's on 204CM skis when I ski bummed at Sun Valley for a couple of winters. ALL we skied was bumps, 1st run to last. Those were the days when it was "go long or go home" on straight skis. I think I may have actually topped out in length with a 207 ski but shockingly I snapped the tail of one of those off in the bumps a few weeks after I got them. We killed it in the bumps even with long, straight skis. But back then we were young, stupid, and able to eject from our skis, tomahawk down the slope with gear spraying everywhere and then just get up, dust the snow off, and start looking for your gear. I suspect that if I were able to transport back in time and give that 22 yr old version of me a pair of 185CM shaped/cambered skis - after a couple of days that version of me would be very happy. Or maybe that version of me would just go back to the 204's because that version of me was kind of a dumb-a$$ and also stubborn.

I don't have much of a point here other than if you are a strong and aggressive enough skier you can make anything work in the bumps. It's a matter of finding the ski that's right for you. So as many have said in this forum and I have echoed in my experience - you gotta demo skis. Wait until there are some decent bumps to ski and have a plan on what skis you want to try and then demo them. You'll find the right one for you that way. Whether you are a 1 ski quiver or a 2-3-4-etc ski quiver skier also makes a huge difference in your needs and what you should be considering.

You guys have my admiration ! My 1985 Quiver was 160 cm Rossi Freestyle 712's that were 195 cm although they were GS skis and I am on the short side . I took a trip out to Lake Louise and on the back side got into a really tight Mogul field crossed tips up top and heard a "Snap" in my ankle , couldn't walk the next day . I'm sure it was a ligament some years later someone pointed out my gate was off my right foot was slightly off . I didn't ski the bumps with those anymore .

Maybe a set of softer skis would have worked OK? I didn't ski a lot in the early 90's with two young kids and only raced once in the 80's. Anyhow ,long boards in tight bumps is impressive to me . As far as being young my goal was to ski Outer Limits top to bottom without stopping .....Never made it , best effort was two stops . My favorite move in the bumps was to launch off one, clear another and land on the downside of the third bump . Ate it a lot but when you pulled it off it was awesome.

Merry Christmas everyone

p_levert · Dec 25, 2017

I am currently on Volkl Wall Mogul skis. Good skis, but now pretty beat (particularly the tops). So I am hoping to see some more ski suggestions beyond Twister, Bloodline and K2 244's. In particular, how about suggestions for a quickturning all mountain ski with 70-75 width (for a Cat 3 mogul person). Thoughts?

deadheadskier · Dec 25, 2017

p_levert said:
I am currently on Volkl Wall Mogul skis. Good skis, but now pretty beat (particularly the tops). So I am hoping to see some more ski suggestions beyond Twister, Bloodline and K2 244's. In particular, how about suggestions for a quickturning all mountain ski with 70-75 width (for a Cat 3 mogul person). Thoughts?

They're expensive, but I recently demod a pair of Head i.rally. They were quick edge to edge, (but probably not as quick as your Walls and definitely not as quick as the Harts I skied) they didn't seem too stiff in the tips and had a low swing weight. I've recently been talking with some friends about getting a ski like you describe that excels at hard snow, but still has good mogul capability and I think those Heads fit the bill.

Where such skis and all SL biased skis suffer is being wide in the shovel. This naturally leads to skiing bumps in wider stance instead of the traditional tight knees. It also makes pivot type turns as you pop over the side of the bump more difficult to execute cleanly. In my mind, that's the primary difference between bump specialty skis and anything else. You have to adapt your stance and take a bit rounder (and slower) turns.

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SkiFanE · Dec 25, 2017

Whitey said:
I cut my teeth in the bumps in the mid to late 80's on 204CM skis when I ski bummed at Sun Valley for a couple of winters. ALL we skied was bumps, 1st run to last. Those were the days when it was "go long or go home" on straight skis. I think I may have actually topped out in length with a 207 ski but shockingly I snapped the tail of one of those off in the bumps a few weeks after I got them. We killed it in the bumps even with long, straight skis. But back then we were young, stupid, and able to eject from our skis, tomahawk down the slope with gear spraying everywhere and then just get up, dust the snow off, and start looking for your gear. I suspect that if I were able to transport back in time and give that 22 yr old version of me a pair of 185CM shaped/cambered skis - after a couple of days that version of me would be very happy. Or maybe that version of me would just go back to the 204's because that version of me was kind of a dumb-a$$ and also stubborn.

I don't have much of a point here other than if you are a strong and aggressive enough skier you can make anything work in the bumps. It's a matter of finding the ski that's right for you. So as many have said in this forum and I have echoed in my experience - you gotta demo skis. Wait until there are some decent bumps to ski and have a plan on what skis you want to try and then demo them. You'll find the right one for you that way. Whether you are a 1 ski quiver or a 2-3-4-etc ski quiver skier also makes a huge difference in your needs and what you should be considering.

i don't think you can compare straight skis to now. I ski 156 shaped and used to ski 185 sticks (I'm 5-4). I had zero problems in the bumps with the old skis, I loved them (Dynastar SL). Only reason I switched to shape is cuz I had no choice lol. Those sticks were flexible - not like shaped skis at all. I didn't find shaped made bumps any easier. I hate my midfats in the bumps (163) - I'd much rather have my old sticks.

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