Skier speed trap hell

deadheadskier · Apr 27, 2018

gregnye said:
I'm so glad the car dependence is ending in this country. And this is coming from someone who drives commercially for work. Cars are unsustainable modes of transportation that prevent social interaction. Not to mention how unsafe they are. We have just become accustom to the daily car crashes and loss of lives cars create.

People always are often impressed at the low miles on my car. Really I only use it to go skiing and take public transit into work. I would 100% sell my car if there was a reliable train to the ski areas I frequent.

Yeah, I don't see the dependence on cars going away in this country at all. Plenty of reasons outlined in this thread.

Plus, the cost of adding commuter rail in heavily populated areas is insane. The Green Line extension in Boston is projected to cost North of a billion dollars just to add four miles to the track.

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BenedictGomez · Apr 27, 2018

deadheadskier said:
The Green Line extension in Boston is projected to cost North of a billion dollars just to add four miles to the track.

Normally I'd read a sentence like this & assume you're wrong, but given its' Boston I'm not even going to bother fact-checking it & just assume you're correct.

Jully · Apr 27, 2018

deadheadskier said:
Yeah, I don't see the dependence on cars going away in this country at all. Plenty of reasons outlined in this thread.

Plus, the cost of adding commuter rail in heavily populated areas is insane. The Green Line extension in Boston is projected to cost North of a billion dollars just to add four miles to the track.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

BenedictGomez said:
Normally I'd read a sentence like this & assume you're wrong, but given its' Boston I'm not even going to bother fact-checking it & just assume you're correct.

Even funnier is that the GLX is almost exclusively on existing commuter rail lines!

What a disaster of a plan. Construction was supposed to originally start in something like 1999.

Hawk · Apr 27, 2018

Smellytele said:
But you don't have to sit or stand next to some one who smells like a dead goat nor sit on and touch things that have been pissed on.

Exactly. I have so many stories about whacked out people on the train. At least in my car I can do my own thing and not have to deal with other peoples issues. Believe me, people have some really f-ed up issues and they love to share them.

BenedictGomez · Apr 27, 2018

Hawk said:
I have so many stories about whacked out people on the train.

I have plenty.

One of my favorites is the time people (and I mean > 20) were quickly STREAMING into my car with a purpose.

I got up thinking maybe they were fleeing from a crazy person with a knife or something. The truth was much worse, a woman in the next car dropped her pants and was taking a dump right in the middle of the car.

VTKilarney · Apr 27, 2018

x10003q said:
There is zero money for rail and due to the way metro areas have developed, trains will never be able to serve commuters.

Bingo. You just can erase the fact that our infrastructure for decades has developed to serve the automobile.

tumbler · Apr 27, 2018

BenedictGomez said:
a woman in the next car dropped her pants and was taking a dump right in the middle of the car.

And now when I do the spped limit through a little VT town I will think of this.

benski · Apr 27, 2018

Hawk said:
I think that Millennials are basically too lazy to drive or move to the suburbs. They would rather use their sense of entitlement and have someone else drive for them. That way they can text and play video games. Driving requires some skill and it also requires an attention span that they do not have. Us Gen-Xers are the generation that will make sure things get done while you guys are busy liking your friends sushi post. LOL

Cars create a lot more problems for society. Highways have to be subsidized by the state budgets just like public transportations but cars also add a lot more pollutants, and force everything further apart, which further increases the cost of transportation. I once estimated NYC's 4 track subways can handle about as many people as a 20 lane highway. And then you have all these suburban businesses that are half parking, which is payed for by the business owner who passes this onto his clients. And look at what we pay for rent, college and compare that to what your generation payed. We really got screwed by your generations laziness to stop investing in education, and trying you best to keep home prices high.

VTKilarney · Apr 27, 2018

benski said:
Cars create a lot more problems for society. Highways have to be subsidized by the state budgets just like public transportations but cars also add a lot more pollutants, and force everything further apart, which further increases the cost of transportation. I once estimated NYC's 4 track subways can handle about as many people as a 20 lane highway. And then you have all these suburban businesses that are half parking, which is payed for by the business owner who passes this onto his clients. And look at what we pay for rent, college and compare that to what your generation payed. We really got screwed by your generations laziness to stop investing in education, and trying you best to keep home prices high.

Clearly too many people are going to college.

benski · Apr 27, 2018

cdskier said:
And if you're going off census data, you need to be very careful with how they define urban areas. For US Census data purposes, anyone that lives in a whopping 3500 square mile area around NYC is considered part of that urban area. I'd love to see someone try to cover an "urban" area that big with efficient mass transit. Not going to happen...

The Netherlands cover there whole country with efficient public transportation, Its close in size but has 3 million fewer people and a much lower GDP per capita than New Yorks Metro area. The difference is they don't have much infrastructure that was built around cars, and no sprawling suburbs so its much easier to serve every neighborhood and town.

Jully · Apr 27, 2018

benski said:
Cars create a lot more problems for society. Highways have to be subsidized by the state budgets just like public transportations but cars also add a lot more pollutants, and force everything further apart, which further increases the cost of transportation. I once estimated NYC's 4 track subways can handle about as many people as a 20 lane highway. And then you have all these suburban businesses that are half parking, which is payed for by the business owner who passes this onto his clients. And look at what we pay for rent, college and compare that to what your generation payed. We really got screwed by your generations laziness to stop investing in education, and trying you best to keep home prices high.

Placing blame on anyone doesn't help with anything. It just takes you down frustrating paths (like this thread is about to go down). There are plenty of disadvantages to cars, but plenty of advantages to them as well. The US transportation system is what it is and bitching about who is to blame for it gets you no where.

It is awesome that in most of the east coast cities, mass transit options have been developed as alternatives to reduce the hideous smog, ozone, and NOx filled highway monstrosities and its also great that our roads have improved and traffic flow has been more optimized to give an alternative to shit filled train cars haha.

Jully · Apr 27, 2018

benski said:
The Netherlands cover there whole country with efficient public transportation, Its close in size but has 3 million fewer people and a much lower GDP per capita than New Yorks Metro area. The difference is they don't have much infrastructure that was built around cars, and no sprawling suburbs so its much easier to serve every neighborhood and town.

While you have a point, the New York Metro area is hardly the reason why people are saying the US will never lose its dependence on cars. It's places like Maine, Montana, Wyoming, and Florida.

x10003q · Apr 27, 2018

Jully said:
I'm curious why you think it doesn't work for skiing? While obviously it isn't ever going to be the ONLY way to go skiing, there's hundreds of bus trips out of Boston alone every weekend. Beyond the startup cost, which is very large, it seems like a more reliable method of bus transportation to resorts.

If a resort like Sunday River had a train to it (tracks that are used still run through Bethel), I would ski way more there and decrease the frequency I'm at other places because of the convenience of the train.

Unless you live right next to the train station, just getting to the train station is a giant pain in the ass. At the time I considered the train, we were living in NYC around 14th st and 3rd ave. We (wife, 9 year old, me) all own equipment. Trying to maneuver heavy ski equipment around NYC at rush hour is difficult at best. The train left around 5:45pm. We needed to leave our apt at 4:45pm and we planned on using the subway (cabs are hard to find at rush hour, plus the traffic can be insane). That meant humping the ski equipment one long block, going down 4 flights of stairs, getting on a crowded subway train, getting off a crowded subway train, walking up 4-6 flights of stairs, walking 1 long block and then walking a good distance in Penn Station. Then we had to go down 2 flights of stairs and load the equipment on the train.
This was just to get to the train.

At the other end in Rutland at 11:15pm, we were still about 30-45 minutes from the lodging, depending where and depending on the shuttle driver meeting us at the train station and if there were other shuttle passengers. We had to unload the equipment from the train and load it onto the van. When we arrive at the lodging, we have to unload the equipment and get it into our room. We also had to make sure we were on a shuttle route or at least slopeside since we did not have a car.
On Sunday you have to reverse the process. Since checkout is usually 11am, you have to hope the lodging will have a place to store your stuff and have a place to change out of your ski clothes for the ride back toRutland to get on the train to NYC. The train leaves Rutland around 5pm and gets into NY Penn around 11pm. Then you need to get a cab back to the apt.

The r/t train tickets were about $300 for the 3 of us. We never priced the shuttle to and from the train station in VT. It can cost money to get to and from NY Penn, also.

Via car (we had one in the city for my job) - 550 miles of driving, about $70 gas and $20 tolls, we could leave at 3pm and be up at Killington about 9pm with a dinner stop. We only had to load the car once and the skis always stayed in the car. We also did not have to pay a premium to be slopeside or rely on the shuttle. We also could bring food or buy food to make lunches and 1 dinner if we wanted to save more money.

The train might work if you could leave your stuff at Killington, but if you went every weekend, it would cost $300 (family of 3) plus the shuttle cost every time you went. You would also have a tough time navigating around Killington for food if you did not have access to a car.

Maybe it works for a single person with a seasonal place to stay. It is pretty difficult and expensive for a family.

VTKilarney · Apr 27, 2018

Jully said:
While you have a point, the New York Metro area is hardly the reason why people are saying the US will never lose its dependence on cars. It's places like Maine, Montana, Wyoming, and Florida.

And the suburbs too. Try not having a car in Wilton or Mt. Kisco.

x10003q · Apr 27, 2018

VTKilarney said:
And the suburbs too. Try not having a car in Wilton or Mt. Kisco.

or anywhere in NJ except Hoboken and Jersey City. There are many places in Brooklyn, Queens, The Bronx and Staten Island where you pretty much need a car.

BenedictGomez · Apr 27, 2018

benski said:
We really got screwed by your generations laziness to stop investing in education, and trying you best to keep home prices high.

The fault for the reason education now costs so much, as well as the reason home prices are artificially high, is the same = Government.

tumbler said:
And now when I do the spped limit through a little VT town I will think of this.

You're welcome!

BenedictGomez · Apr 27, 2018

Jully said:
The US transportation system is what it is and bitching about who is to blame for it gets you no where.

The US highway system (Eisenhower) is the envy of the world.

The only people you typically find "bitching about it" are either a small minority of eco-extremists or the people who wish America was Europe, and often those two small groups of "people" are actually the same people.

Killingtime · Apr 27, 2018

x10003q said:
The train might work if you could leave your stuff at Killington, but if you went every weekend, it would cost $300 (family of 3) plus the shuttle cost every time you went. You would also have a tough time navigating around Killington for food if you did not have access to a car.

Yeah, Amtrak from NYC to Rutland is way more expensive than driving especially if you are travelling with a family. I always drive too. Can't imagine lugging ski equipment through Penn Station on a Friday evening either.

bdfreetuna · Apr 27, 2018

Given the choice of Eisenhower highways or a bullet train to Osaka, I'll take the open road.

Jully · Apr 27, 2018

x10003q said:
Unless you live right next to the train station, just getting to the train station is a giant pain in the ass. At the time I considered the train, we were living in NYC around 14th st and 3rd ave. We (wife, 9 year old, me) all own equipment. Trying to maneuver heavy ski equipment around NYC at rush hour is difficult at best. The train left around 5:45pm. We needed to leave our apt at 4:45pm and we planned on using the subway (cabs are hard to find at rush hour, plus the traffic can be insane). That meant humping the ski equipment one long block, going down 4 flights of stairs, getting on a crowded subway train, getting off a crowded subway train, walking up 4-6 flights of stairs, walking 1 long block and then walking a good distance in Penn Station. Then we had to go down 2 flights of stairs and load the equipment on the train.
This was just to get to the train.

At the other end in Rutland at 11:15pm, we were still about 30-45 minutes from the lodging, depending where and depending on the shuttle driver meeting us at the train station and if there were other shuttle passengers. We had to unload the equipment from the train and load it onto the van. When we arrive at the lodging, we have to unload the equipment and get it into our room. We also had to make sure we were on a shuttle route or at least slopeside since we did not have a car.
On Sunday you have to reverse the process. Since checkout is usually 11am, you have to hope the lodging will have a place to store your stuff and have a place to change out of your ski clothes for the ride back toRutland to get on the train to NYC. The train leaves Rutland around 5pm and gets into NY Penn around 11pm. Then you need to get a cab back to the apt.

The r/t train tickets were about $300 for the 3 of us. We never priced the shuttle to and from the train station in VT. It can cost money to get to and from NY Penn, also.

Via car (we had one in the city for my job) - 550 miles of driving, about $70 gas and $20 tolls, we could leave at 3pm and be up at Killington about 9pm with a dinner stop. We only had to load the car once and the skis always stayed in the car. We also did not have to pay a premium to be slopeside or rely on the shuttle. We also could bring food or buy food to make lunches and 1 dinner if we wanted to save more money.

The train might work if you could leave your stuff at Killington, but if you went every weekend, it would cost $300 (family of 3) plus the shuttle cost every time you went. You would also have a tough time navigating around Killington for food if you did not have access to a car.

Maybe it works for a single person with a seasonal place to stay. It is pretty difficult and expensive for a family.

The Rutland train is hardly what i was envisioning though. You're absolutely correct that trains like that are next to useless.

The Winter Park ski train is what I am talking about being replicated. Beyond startup costs, I don't see much reason why it can't be and most of the rail lines are there and in use already for freight. WP train arrives literally slopeside and tickets are $29 pp I think. Maybe not cost effective for a family, but that is less than what I pay to drive to Sunday River or Sugarloaf when you factor in mileage and gas on the car.

Skier speed trap hell

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