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Killington: the Apocalypse

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Highway Star

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Just wanted to give everyone a heads up about how great things are going at Killington these days under the astute guidance of POWDR (owners of Park City Utah) and SP Land (owned by E2M of Texas). We are extremely lucky to have such a seasoned and well respected resort operator at the helm of Killington. The new President, Chris Nyburg, brings his vast experience as a manager at Mt. Bachelor to the table, and great things are sure to happen.

Steve said:
i'm trying to wrap my brain around this and it's just blowing my mind..

i know i'm forgetting a bunch of stuff - please add to this list what I forgot..

Since April 2007, Killington's new owners and management have:

ended may / late season skiing (this caused me to leave)
ended pre-thanksgiving / early season skiing
closed pico midweek (Tues-Wed)
closed a bunch of lodges midweek
closed lower skyship midweek (Mon-Thur)
increased pass prices by 60%
removed season pass program for children's programs
increased day-pass prices for children's programs
killed lifetime season passes

i also see it as a negative that they haven't corrected any of ASC's bad policies, either.

You can add to that:

Layed off many full time workers, including ski patrol
Zero tolerance policy on the skiers responsibility code (ski fast, lose pass, permanently)
Shortening the ski season from 200+ days to 150
No Connecticut ski council ticket deals
Same snowmaking budget as last year, maybe
No viable discount ticket card program
25 foreign workers (down from 100), less full time and part time staff, less staff overall by a large amount
4 extra blackout days
Pico ticket prices not released yet
Hard opening and closing dates of November 17th and April 13th.

Needless to say, the faithful Killington customer is overjoyed at these changes, having been freed from the yoke of ASC and their horribly underpriced products with a good operations and a solid value. This is the premium product Killington customers have been yearning for, we are all looking forward to the new premium experience on the mountain this year....whatever that may be. SP Land is on track to have major success with their new Base Village!!!!

All the regular posters at www.killingtonzone.com are quite enthusiastic about these changes, just check out these threads:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18881

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18877

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18879

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18870

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18785

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18753

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18619



rogman said:
I love my place, and love to ski Killington. I think the dishonesty (and I don't use that word lightly) with which they've marketed their plans is appalling, and don't understand how they can expect to recover. I have always told my children the most valuable thing they own is their good name. Credibility cannot be bought, and in any tough competitive market, should not be frivolously squandered for short term gain. And that is exactly what these fools have done. Let me be clear: I do not think they have lied (but I'm sure many will disagree). However they have withheld information and allowed their customers to assume facts about how they would operate that they obviously knew to be false. Sorry, that is dishonest.

They are also looking for new marketing slogans......

Dr. NO said:
KV said:
Killington, The Incredible Shrinking Mountain!

Killington, The Incredible Shrinking Season

Skiing from November to April, MAYBE!

Greatest Verticle in New England (If we run the lifts)

6 Mountains and Lodges (weekends only)

Killington, The Beast of the East (died and was served cold)

Ski Killington! It is Worth More (even though we actually give you LESS)

Whoever thought we would get LESS than what Les gave us?

Mister Moose said:
Pissing Off Wrong Demographic Regularly.

laseranimal said:
my favorites so far

6 Mountains and Lodges (weekends only)

Bring Back Les Otten

Killingtongue my balls

Pwdr Sucks.

You Thought ASC was Bad?

robrules said:
Last to open, first to close (profits permitting)

Killington - The Least of the East

We lost the new ownership lottery

Don't blame me, I voted for Boyne

Killington - Sieze the profit

Killington - Endless Neglect

Killington - Ski it if you can (afford it)

Killington - More closed lifts than you can ride in a week

Grow Killington, Kill Powdr

SPORE said:
Hey Pwdr: Stratton Already Exists.
 

wa-loaf

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I think at this point everyone should encourage Powdr to keep moving in the direction they are. Hopefully (for you guys, I hardly ski there as it is) they'll bomb spectacularly and have to sell in a couple years and Les Otten can pick it up for cheap. :-D
 

ctenidae

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You know, these guys may actually be very astute financial engineers. Sometimes a loss is better than a profit. Not often, but sometimes. They could ride this year's loss out for 5-6 years of tax breaks, easy.
 

tcharron

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You know, these guys may actually be very astute financial engineers. Sometimes a loss is better than a profit. Not often, but sometimes. They could ride this year's loss out for 5-6 years of tax breaks, easy.

You are correct, HOWEVER, operate at a loss without alienating your customers is an important aspect of that. Otherwise the concept crashes.
 

riverc0il

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Has any one really put much of a stink up about Killington except former Killington skiers, especially those that lost out on the A41? Quite frankly, as a non-Kmart skier, Killington looks better and better everyday. And maybe that is part of what they are going for....
 

tcharron

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Has any one really put much of a stink up about Killington except former Killington skiers, especially those that lost out on the A41? Quite frankly, as a non-Kmart skier, Killington looks better and better everyday. And maybe that is part of what they are going for....

Personally, I'm not normally a killington skier. I go perhaps once or twice a year. After reading the information that's coming out, this years ski outings will NOT have Killington in them. I was less then impressed, honestly, last year. With the price increases that are associated with it, and the total lack of feedback letting people know what AND why they are doing them, I'll be doing those trips at Okemo or Sunday River.

Really, the ONLY beny I ever found was the couple of bar/mini clubs that where very close to the hotels at Killington.
 

tcharron

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Personally, I'm not normally a killington skier. I go perhaps once or twice a year. After reading the information that's coming out, this years ski outings will NOT have Killington in them. I was less then impressed, honestly, last year. With the price increases that are associated with it, and the total lack of feedback letting people know what AND why they are doing them, I'll be doing those trips at Okemo or Sunday River.

Really, the ONLY beny I ever found was the couple of bar/mini clubs that where very close to the hotels at Killington.

Too clarify specifically, I always like to take the kids on a late season outing to a larger ski area to say goodbye to the season with a little bang. Early closing = out of the question. When I did go for several day outings, I loved going to Pico for a change of pace. That's now also out of the question during my vacations. On top of that, increased prices with no discount deals available at any time, specifically, none during the times when people AREN'T on vacations normally.

When I spend time for myself to go out and ski, take a day or two off work, guess when I'm doing it? During the week. I'm a gaper, I don't LIKE the crowds. Busy is ok, but a beelion people staring at me while I try to tackle harder terrain so I can get better is NOT something I'm going to enjoy. And you know what? I'm not the only guy who likes it that way.
 

snoseek

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just don't give them your money. simple as that. move on to somewhere better.

I do sympathize with anyone that has real estate there.
 

FridayHiker

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Quite frankly, as a non-Kmart skier, Killington looks better and better everyday. And maybe that is part of what they are going for....

Riverc0il, just curious, but what makes you say that? I'm a non-Killington skier (went for the first time last year simply because with their $36 NH/VT Tuesday/Wednesday deal, it was the cheapest place we could take the kids during Feb. vacation for a daytrip outing to an area that was new to them), but none of these changes make it even remotely better to me.
 

riverc0il

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What makes me say that is simple: the place is going to be empty and they are going to loose a lot of skier visits. Let's face it, Killington has some quality terrain. I have never been able to explore it because I refuse to visit the place mid-season due to crowds (both size and the demeanour). If crowd size decreases significantly and the people that are there are not yahoos, then Killington is back on the map for this skier. Though I have no idea what would make me point my car south east instead of north east excepting a coastal storm that didn't hit Northern New England. Also, the ticket prices are a bit high for what the place is considering I have a pass at Jay and Card at MRG. So would I get over there? Probably not. Is it back on the table, absolutely.
 

millerm277

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Has any one really put much of a stink up about Killington except former Killington skiers, especially those that lost out on the A41?

The actual price is NOT the issue for most, it's the decisions that impact the ski experience that are the issue (short season, inaccessible terrain from lifts not running, etc..).

Also, to clarify the price issue, the raising of the price isn't the problem, it's that they're giving us much less than last year yet charging a huge amount more.

Further, they didn't inform anyone of these changes until AFTER people are already locked into passes. That is incredibly dishonest, especially considering they refused to even admit the Skyeship midweek closing until someone posted an email from K specifically stating that it was true.

Quite frankly, as a non-Kmart skier, Killington looks better and better everyday. And maybe that is part of what they are going for....

How so?
 

riverc0il

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Simple. ASC went for lowest common denominator. Maximum skier visits and season pass holders by offering a price that was below market value. The new management clearly thinks that creating a more exclusive and higher end product is worth the increased expense. Since prices go up and deals are eliminated, crowds and riff raff will go down by default. It could very well be that Killington is not only not crying about some lost business, they could actually be counting on it for their business model to succeed long term. JimG and Geoff have noted before the differences between the Sunday River/Sugarloaf camp and the Killington camp in that Killington is trying to get finances and long term strategies in order while sacrificing short term issues such as some lost skier visits and some ill will as the bridges get burned. Sunday River/Sugarloaf on the other hand are building the bridges and offering an incredibly good package at a good price and to hell with margins if they can really start some great publicity and momentum and good will the first season. I think rocket21 mentioned somewhere that what Killington is really missing right now is a good spin doctor to market the changes better and soften the blow. Who knows, maybe it is all just unintended consequences. But I suspect much of the current bridge burning is premeditated to refine the resorts image and attract higher spending and more demanding customers that will not put up with the riff raff and crowds. Just my take.
 

ALLSKIING

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Simple. ASC went for lowest common denominator. Maximum skier visits and season pass holders by offering a price that was below market value. The new management clearly thinks that creating a more exclusive and higher end product is worth the increased expense. Since prices go up and deals are eliminated, crowds and riff raff will go down by default. It could very well be that Killington is not only not crying about some lost business, they could actually be counting on it for their business model to succeed long term. JimG and Geoff have noted before the differences between the Sunday River/Sugarloaf camp and the Killington camp in that Killington is trying to get finances and long term strategies in order while sacrificing short term issues such as some lost skier visits and some ill will as the bridges get burned. Sunday River/Sugarloaf on the other hand are building the bridges and offering an incredibly good package at a good price and to hell with margins if they can really start some great publicity and momentum and good will the first season. I think rocket21 mentioned somewhere that what Killington is really missing right now is a good spin doctor to market the changes better and soften the blow. Who knows, maybe it is all just unintended consequences. But I suspect much of the current bridge burning is premeditated to refine the resorts image and attract higher spending and more demanding customers that will not put up with the riff raff and crowds. Just my take.
Good post Steve!!
 

millerm277

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But I suspect much of the current bridge burning is premeditated to refine the resorts image and attract higher spending and more demanding customers that will not put up with the riff raff and crowds. Just my take.

Why would a rich person go to K? They have no significant investment in anything that matters to customers in the last 6 years, no real luxury accommodations, and more importantly....their competitors have the high-end market locked up pretty well. (Especially Stratton and Stowe).

Even with the village, K will never become another Stratton or Stowe.

Why? Because, the NYC crowd that goes to K is their greatest asset and their greatest liability. It's impossible to ever get rid of them, short of closing the area, or charging $120 for a lift ticket.

Another question....why change the business model that has worked in the past and would work again. Killington has not lost money since it's second season, why change the model?
 

riverc0il

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Who ever said they were targeting the "rich person" that go to Stratton or Stowe as you suggested? The well to do city slicker crowd looking for some night life without the riff raff is a score at Killington still. It is even more appealing to the well to do NYC crowded now that the Joeys, families, and young kids can't afford the A41.

Why change the business model? Because Killington no longer has any other resorts to pander a cheap A41 pass with. They certainly can not stay the course on ASC's business model. Why change business models? Because the people who designed the previous business model all just filed for unemployment.

I know the crowd of people this type of move will attract and I think it is a financially sound and logical move from a business stand point. Did they burn too many bridges and cause too much negative press in the process? Perhaps. But attracting industry savy customers is not what the new management is about, IMO. The crowd going to Kmart is going to be looking for the all inclusive package at a big mountain and will want to feel treated well without being posh and exclusive. Certainly the NYC and CT markets will be the biggest draw, but the demographics are going to change significantly.

Try to be objective about the whole thing. Lots of people are bent out of shape about Killington changing because they were vested into the mountain. I can understand, I blow some steam too when my personal favourites change things up in ways I don't like. I can usually see it as a business decision even if I do not agree or desire the change.
 
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