Auto tires for winter driving

hammer · Jan 8, 2008

How much does ground clearance factor in to getting around in the snow? I remember talking to a few people at the auto show about the Toyota Prius and they said that the car didn't have much ground clearance, which made it trickier to drive in the snow. Not that the ground clearance of a large SUV or Jeep is needed...

riverc0il · Jan 8, 2008

hammer said:
How much does ground clearance factor in to getting around in the snow? I remember talking to a few people at the auto show about the Toyota Prius and they said that the car didn't have much ground clearance, which made it trickier to drive in the snow. Not that the ground clearance of a large SUV or Jeep is needed...

Snow tires are more of an issue, IMO, in most conditions. Depends on the type of snow too. I have easily drove right through over half a foot (above my ground clearance on a small coupe) of very dense and heavy snow. More of a concern would be junk in the snow getting up in the under carriage. Certainly big snow totals would favor a higher ground clearance vehicle with snows, but below critical clearance levels, snows are more important as it won't matter that the higher ground clearance vehicles are above the snow if the tires are not gripping. How often do people need to drive through more than 6" of untouched snow aside from backing out of a parking space? Not really a factor for most drivers in my mind.

billski · Jan 9, 2008

riverc0il said:
Snow tires are more of an issue, IMO, in most conditions. Depends on the type of snow too. I have easily drove right through over half a foot (above my ground clearance on a small coupe) of very dense and heavy snow. More of a concern would be junk in the snow getting up in the under carriage. Certainly big snow totals would favor a higher ground clearance vehicle with snows, but below critical clearance levels, snows are more important as it won't matter that the higher ground clearance vehicles are above the snow if the tires are not gripping. How often do people need to drive through more than 6" of untouched snow aside from backing out of a parking space? Not really a factor for most drivers in my mind.

Clearance becomes an issue in "sportier" cars, of which I have. Lower profile tires, bigger wheels and suspension bring the car lower to the ground. I've heard very bad reports of cars not handling well if you try to raise the height by going back to, let's say 16" tires.

I agree that traction is the more important issue unless you are off-roading. (Lots of people like to give the impression that's what they do, and never do. Like the people with giganta-suv's in my town who's sole job is to shuttle muffy and buffy to school and pickup mass quantities of bread and milk for the "storm of the century"

For me, clearance is pretty much a non-issue, since I almost always drive on plowed (or recently plowed) roads.

Interestingly, I'm starting to see more Prius up-country, I wonder how they are faring?

tjf67 · Jan 9, 2008

riverc0il said:
Impressive argumentative and debating skills. Not a dad and only 29 years old but that is really beside the point of your ad hominem retort. I got a few amen's from other "dads" on the forum. :roll:

How do you want me to argue the ridiculous statement you made. I dont know I only drive 40k miles per year around the high peaks. 2wd with snow tires are no match for an awd with at tires period. to argue different is silly.
But hey that why snow tires sell, to each there own. The only reason a person would drop to an 2wd and snow tires is for MPH not better handling.

deadheadskier · Jan 9, 2008

tjf67 said:
How do you want me to argue the rediculous statement you made. I dont know I only drive 40k miles per year around the high peaks. 2wd with snow tires are no match for an awd with at tires period. to argue different is silly.
But hey that why snow tires sell, to each there own. The only reason a person would drop to an 2wd and snow tires is for MPH not better handling.

I'll say it again, I drove a 2000 Audi A6 with AT tires on it last winter. My 1982 Honda Accord with Nokia Hakapalitas (sp) got me through the snow better than the Audi. AWD / 4WD doesn't help much unless your tires can actually grip the road.

So count me with river on this opinion. Also count me with river that your 'thanks dad' comment was unecessary and juvenile.

X-Linked · Jan 9, 2008

deadheadskier said:
I'll say it again, I drove a 2000 Audi A6 with AT tires on it last winter. My 1982 Honda Accord with Nokia Hakapalitas (sp) got me through the snow better than the Audi. AWD / 4WD doesn't help much unless your tires can actually grip the road.

So count me with river on this opinion. Also count me with river that your 'thanks dad' comment was unecessary and juvenile.

Bald tires will never get you anywhere in the snow or ice. But, You're trying to tell me that the car that is best know for being the BEST driving/handling system ever in the AUDI (I have owned 2, plus Many many other cars) is not going to drive as well as your accord? Let's put it this way. I have never seen a Honda accord, or even a a crx civic in a Snow rally race. EVER. In a heat of about 12-16 cars there is ALWAYS 2-3 audis. The only reason your Honda drove better than the audi, was you probably didn't have LP tires, but BALD tires. You might as well be driving on street slicks if you're going to be doing that.

tjf67 · Jan 9, 2008

deadheadskier said:
I'll say it again, I drove a 2000 Audi A6 with AT tires on it last winter. My 1982 Honda Accord with Nokia Hakapalitas (sp) got me through the snow better than the Audi. AWD / 4WD doesn't help much unless your tires can actually grip the road.

So count me with river on this opinion. Also count me with river that your 'thanks dad' comment was unecessary and juvenile.

First off the audi had all season tires on it not AT. Second audi 4wd system is one of the best. You sure it was not driver error. I had an A4 that was one of the best vehicles i have ever had in the snow. Was better than the my rover, wrangler and grand.
I am thinking driver error on your part

deadheadskier · Jan 9, 2008

X-Linked said:
Bald tires will never get you anywhere in the snow or ice. But, You're trying to tell me that the car that is best know for being the BEST driving/handling system ever in the AUDI (I have owned 2, plus Many many other cars) is not going to drive as well as your accord? Let's put it this way. I have never seen a Honda accord, or even a a crx civic in a Snow rally race. EVER. In a heat of about 12-16 cars there is ALWAYS 2-3 audis. The only reason your Honda drove better than the audi, was you probably didn't have LP tires, but BALD tires. You might as well be driving on street slicks if you're going to be doing that.

I'm not saying that FWD is better than AWD in the snow. I am saying that a FWD with snow tires can be just as capable and in some, not all, intances, better in snow driving conditions than an AWD. This based on MY experience not others. Perhaps the all seasons I had on the Audi weren't that great. I'm no expert on tires, but when I bought the car, I got new tires and asked the shop to put new all seasons on it that offered the best snow performance. These tires were BRAND NEW not BALD.

From MY experience, the Audi did pretty well in the snow, the back end wasn't as squirly as the Honda, BUT, the Honda with the Nokia's made it up steeper snow covered roads with greater ease and I ran into less problems with the car tracking around turns where as the Audi had a harder time catching grip and the car wanted to go straight.

All of you AWD fans need to calm down a bit. I've explained MY story and so from MY experience, I feel that tires matter more than the drive system. As far as all the rally mumbo jumbo, I could care less. I'm just looking to get to the mountain and this has been MY experience.

deadheadskier · Jan 9, 2008

tjf67 said:
First off the audi had all season tires on it not AT. Second audi 4wd system is one of the best. You sure it was not driver error. I had an A4 that was one of the best vehicles i have ever had in the snow. Was better than the my rover, wrangler and grand.
I am thinking driver error on your part

Dude, I lived in Vermont for 11 out of 14 years between when I was 16 and age 30. Trust me, I know how to drive in snow. Since I got my license, these are the cars I've owned and what type of tires on them for winter and I'll rank them in order of what performed best

1988 Acura Legend with snows (2)
1988 VW Fox with snows (5)
1982 Honda Accord with snows (1) - suprisingly better than the Acura I think due to manual transmission
1995 Ford Explorer with AT (3) - though the Explorer was #1 in deep snow
2000 Audi A6 with AS (4)
2007 Hyundai Sonata with AS (6)

I'm not thinking driver error on my part, I'm thinking arrogance on YOUR part. As you see, I've driven all kinds of cars with all kinds of tires. I've shared my experiences, I've got 16 years driving experience to base an opinion off of and I'll stick to it. FWD with snows has treated me better than AWD or 4WD with all seasons / all terrain. The only instace where that wasn't the case was the VW

I'm done arguing. Why don't you AWD drivers go take your cars out to a rally race or something instead of beating it down our throats how YOU'RE right and I or river is wrong. I'm not saying I'm right, you're wrong. Just sharing my experiences and opinion gathered from them.

Marc · Jan 9, 2008

Deadhead, tire width is another factor that comes into play, something no one else here has mentioned yet. The A6 has WIDE tires, even for it's increased weight and by comparison your Honda had skinny ass tires. The tire width to car weight ratio makes a difference driving in snow. I suspect this is one of the reasons my Subie does very well in snow with all seasons. Same weight as the S4 but has 195's rather than 225's.

Another point of order, most AWD systems today perform pretty close to the same, and are relatively invisible to the driver. While I do think the Torsen center diff Audi uses is probably the least likely to fail, nearly all systems use the brakes to control traction and "guide" torque flow to the wheel with the most traction.

Annoying if you ask me.

I'd prefer an AWD system with no electronic aids and manually locking front, center and rear differentials.

deadheadskier · Jan 9, 2008

good point on the tire width

Marc · Jan 9, 2008

Other elements to the equation include engine power output and torque output curves, type of transmission, transmission gearing, final gearing, chassis weight distribution, total vehicle weight, suspension... there are probably some more I'm forgetting.

To add some more fuel to the fire, with a competent driver, I think a manual transmission will far outperform an automatic transmission in the snow, all else equal. There have been a few times where I would have been very stuck if I didn't have the ability to select a higher gear manually.

deadheadskier · Jan 9, 2008

Marc said:
I think a manual transmission will far outperform an automatic transmission in the snow, all else equal.

Agreed and not just in snow.

Marc · Jan 9, 2008

deadheadskier said:
Agreed and not just in snow.

Good point, that qualifier was not necessary.

mlctvt · Jan 9, 2008

tjf67 said:
I will take my awd with at tires and run circles around any car with 2wd with snow tires. They probaly had my mom in the awd vehicle and tony stewart with 2wd snow tires.

This simply is not true. You may think it does better. Read the article- it scientifically measured performance . Aceleration, braking and skidpad numbers.

EDIT- Sorry I just saw you said AT tires, the article I mention compared ALL SEASON tires on AWD cars to the exact same car offered with 2WD and SNOW tires.

snoseek · Jan 9, 2008

Disclaimer-this is only my uneducated opinion and experience but.....

20,000 dollars is a lot of money to pay for peice of mind I think. I won't argue that audi/subie/whatever are a great ride but if getting through the snow is the very sole purpose for buying one than it seems like a huge waste of money. Not trying to put down anyones ride, because if I had more money-I sure as $hit would upgrade from my civic.

Marc · Jan 9, 2008

snoseek said:
Disclaimer-this is only my uneducated opinion and experience but.....

20,000 dollars is a lot of money to pay for peice of mind I think. I won't argue that audi/subie/whatever are a great ride but if getting through the snow is the very sole purpose for buying one than it seems like a huge waste of money. Not trying to put down anyones ride, because if I had more money-I sure as $hit would upgrade from my civic.

<- Paid $7,000

riverc0il · Jan 9, 2008

tjf67, it is cool, we are talking apples and oranges here. I am making my remarks in regards to snows versus all seasons. I have no experience with AT tires but I assume they bridge the gap between the two and probably give the edge to the AWD vehicle. FWIW, I plan to make my next vehicle a Subaru (with snow tires of course), so I am not arguing based on an anti-AWD platform, but rather from the perspective that people often make the wrong choices in regards to drive type and tire type compared to their needs. My needs are being a storm and powder day chaser and backcountry skier looking to access hairy unplowed roads with restrictive parking... FWD with snows gets the job done but still has its limits. My biggest point of contention is for the average skier and skiing family, AWD with all seasons makes them feel safer but is "often times" (not always, but more often than not, IMO) inferior to many FWD vehicles with snows. No experience with AT so I will defer to your judgment in that regard.

tjf67 · Jan 10, 2008

riverc0il said:
tjf67, it is cool, we are talking apples and oranges here. I am making my remarks in regards to snows versus all seasons. I have no experience with AT tires but I assume they bridge the gap between the two and probably give the edge to the AWD vehicle. FWIW, I plan to make my next vehicle a Subaru (with snow tires of course), so I am not arguing based on an anti-AWD platform, but rather from the perspective that people often make the wrong choices in regards to drive type and tire type compared to their needs. My needs are being a storm and powder day chaser and backcountry skier looking to access hairy unplowed roads with restrictive parking... FWD with snows gets the job done but still has its limits. My biggest point of contention is for the average skier and skiing family, AWD with all seasons makes them feel safer but is "often times" (not always, but more often than not, IMO) inferior to many FWD vehicles with snows. No experience with AT so I will defer to your judgment in that regard.

We were talking about two different types of tires. AT are more for on road/off road. An AT tire is not going to work as well as a snow tire on snow and ice but plenty sufficient for anything we see. I have taken my truck up and over passes in the ADK on seasonal roads that are closed . Fom Keene Valley over into Ausable if anyone is familiar with that road.. They have the Deep tread but the rubber is not as soft and the actual tread is not as aggressive. The AT is better for highway and because the rubber is a little harder you dont get as much road noice or as much wear.
You are correct about 2wd. When My truck wears out I will switch to 2wd because of gas prices and most likely will get snows for a few months in the winter.

WJenness · Jan 10, 2008

deadheadskier said:
(snip)
1988 Acura Legend with snows (2)
1988 VW Fox with snows (5)
1982 Honda Accord with snows (1) - suprisingly better than the Acura I think due to manual transmission
1995 Ford Explorer with AT (3) - though the Explorer was #1 in deep snow
2000 Audi A6 with AS (4)
2007 Hyundai Sonata with AS (6)
(snip)

I'm not going to get into the tires debate other than to say this is my first winter with AWD (bought an 2004 A4 3.0Q M6 in May) and thus far, I love it...

But I am going to observe... From an A6 to a Hyundai Sonata? Ouch... I'm sorry man.

I can't see myself buying a non-Audi at this point.

I'm a fanboy... I admit it.

-w

Auto tires for winter driving

Active member

New member

Active member

New member

Moderator

New member

New member

Moderator

Moderator

New member

Moderator

New member

Moderator

New member

Active member

Well-known member

New member

New member

New member

Active member

Similar threads