The "Sugarbush Thread"

Tin · Nov 22, 2014

I have been stuck on lifts at Mt. Snow, Pico, and Crotched where back ups had to be used and it was a very slow crawl to the top to unload on each. I remember Pico taking almost a half hour to get from just above Birch Woods to the summit. Hell DHS and I were stuck on the Crotched Rocket last year at the top of Pluto's (so figure 150' to get to the top) and that took over 10 minutes. If it "just wasn't fast enough" it sounds like it was hardly moving or not at all.

BushMogulMaster · Nov 22, 2014

Scruffy said:
Interesting that the back-up system ( the diesel ) needs to run at some predetermined, by code, speed. I thought the back-up diesel was to get people off a lift that was going to shutdown anyway, due to an electric outage or other main motor malfunction. Seems a bit picky to me, I'd be happy to get off the lift, even at a slower pace, rather than a evact. Can someone with knowledge in the area shed any light on the speed requirement? Perhaps the speed just an indicator of an unhealthy diesel engine ?

I don't have the code in front of me, but there are different specs for APU vs. EPU engines. APU = auxilliary power unit, and it is the backup engine designed, more or less, to operate the lift at full capacity and full speed. If there's an APU, it will be required to meet these standards. An EPU is an emergency power unit, and is just designed to evacuate the passengers, and thus may run at a much slower speed. Many newer lifts are equipped with both, an both will be expected by code to meet their design specifications.

Anyone who has ANSI B77 in front, feel free to correct me. Just going from memory here, and I haven't been in the lift world for a while.

But you are also accurate that an inability to meet design standards, fast or slow, does indicate an unhealthy engine. And an unhealthy engine in this application means a potentially hazardous situation.

VTKilarney · Nov 22, 2014

Tin said:
Hell DHS and I were stuck on the Crotched Rocket last year at the top of Pluto's (so figure 150' to get to the top) and that took over 10 minutes. If it "just wasn't fast enough" it sounds like it was hardly moving or not at all.

DHS skied at an area other than Killington????

Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone

Tin · Nov 22, 2014

VTKilarney said:
DHS skied at an area other than Killington????

Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone

DHS = Deadheadskier
DHS =/= Douchey Highway Star

steamboat1 · Nov 22, 2014

BushMogulMaster said:
But this is the one I want to really grab onto:

First of all, this problem seems to be with the injection system. Without knowing what model this is, I have to assume it's a commonrail injection system. Obviously, we're not talking about a rebuild. But fuel injection is critical in diesel combustion, and can be complex, especially in high horsepower applications.

But rebuilding a high-horsepower diesel engine is neither easy, nor fast. We had a full in-frame rebuild on two Cummins 8.3 units in our cats last year (spun a bearing in one, and dropped a valve in the other - both right about 9,000 hours), and it can be a week-long project when you factor in teardown, final diagnosis, resleeving, replacing connecting rods and pistons (and crankshafts, for that matter...) as necessary, and then reassembling. Not to mention that typically if a rebuild is required, you're looking at turbo and manifold work, and likely injection system work. Especially if it's a HEUI system! But I don't think Cummins ever went that route......

Anyway, not commenting at all on the Bush's situation (we've all got our own problems to worry about this time of year!), just sayin'... diesel engines are, on one hand, quite simple in theory. Yet on the other hand, often quite complex in real-world applications.

Why does a back-up motor for a lift need all that fancy mumbo jumbo? A groomer I can understand. A simple Detroit 6, 8 or 1271 would be plenty ample & are easy to tear down & rebuild with parts being readily available. Injectors are probably the simplest things to change on those engines. If I'm not mistaken the single chair at MRG ran for decades using a 671. No need for all the fancy electronic computers with those engines either. All they need is fuel.

BushMogulMaster · Nov 22, 2014

steamboat1 said:
Why does a back-up motor for a lift need all that fancy mumbo jumbo? A groomer I can understand. A simple Detroit 6, 8 or 1271 would be plenty ample & are easy to tear down & rebuild with parts being readily available. Injectors are probably the simplest things to change on those engines. If I'm not mistaken the single chair at MRG ran for decades using a 671. No need for all the fancy electronic computers with those engines either. All they need is fuel.

Large diesels are not necessarily that complex in theory, as I said. In fact, fuel + compression (heat) = combustion. But there's a lot of supporting components! And to do a rebuild just takes a lot of time.

Taking the computer out of the mix doesn't necessarily make it that much easier. There's more to diesel than just engine control. You start with fuel delivery, which means a lifter pump. Then fuel lines. Then your injection system, whether commonrail or HEUI, it's gotta be just right. Then injectors, which, as you said, are not difficult to replace. But they're just one tiny piece of the puzzle. Then you go inside, and you've got pistons, rings, cylinders, lifters, valves, connecting rods, and on and on and on and on. Not to mention the turbo system: up pipes, down pipes, turbo seals (better keep tabs on those... don't want a runaway!), compressor wheel, aftercooler, etc. Then the usual things on any engine, like the cooling system (radiator, fan, hoses, etc.). In the modern day with Tier IV standards, you've got a ridiculous amount of emissions equipment, like EGRs, EGR coolers, DPF systems, urea injection, etc.

But we're off topic. They don't need to do a rebuild, just make a repair to the fuel injection system. Who knows what's wrong. May have nothing to do with injectors, but could be a fuel pump for the commonrail that's not building enough pressure, or something along those lines.

BushMogulMaster · Nov 22, 2014

And FYI, parts usually are extremely readily available for Cummins engines, so this must be a very specific part that isn't commonly stocked.

steamboat1 · Nov 22, 2014

BushMogulMaster said:
Large diesels are not necessarily that complex in theory, as I said. In fact, fuel + compression (heat) = combustion. But there's a lot of supporting components! And to do a rebuild just takes a lot of time.

Taking the computer out of the mix doesn't necessarily make it that much easier. There's more to diesel than just engine control. You start with fuel delivery, which means a lifter pump. Then fuel lines. Then your injection system, whether commonrail or HEUI, it's gotta be just right. Then injectors, which, as you said, are not difficult to replace. But they're just one tiny piece of the puzzle. Then you go inside, and you've got pistons, rings, cylinders, lifters, valves, connecting rods, and on and on and on and on. Not to mention the turbo system: up pipes, down pipes, turbo seals (better keep tabs on those... don't want a runaway!), compressor wheel, aftercooler, etc. Then the usual things on any engine, like the cooling system (radiator, fan, hoses, etc.). In the modern day with Tier IV standards, you've got a ridiculous amount of emissions equipment, like EGRs, EGR coolers, DPF systems, urea injection, etc.

But we're off topic. They don't need to do a rebuild, just make a repair to the fuel injection system. Who knows what's wrong. May have nothing to do with injectors, but could be a fuel pump for the commonrail that's not building enough pressure, or something along those lines.

Yes I know what it entails to tear down an engine. I've helped rebuild the 871's on our boat a few times. When I say easy I mean it should only take 3-4 days the most to tear down & rebuild. In an emergency it can be done quicker by putting in more hours each day. This of course is if you're using new parts. If your sending parts out to be re-machined then it will take longer.

BushMogulMaster · Nov 22, 2014

steamboat1 said:
Yes I know what it entails to tear down an engine. I've helped rebuild the 871's on our boat a few times. When I say easy I mean it should only take 3-4 days the most to tear down & rebuild. In an emergency it can be done quicker by putting in more hours each day. This of course is if you're using new parts. If your sending parts out to be re-machined then it will take longer.

It's all good, man... I was just responding to your original statement that "It's not that difficult to rebuild a diesel engine, doesn't take long either. " Most would read something like that, and interpret it to mean that it doesn't require any special training, and you could do it in the space of a day or so. To the contrary, a full rebuild requires specialized knowledge and training, and even a pro might take a week to complete it depending on the point of failure.

Now back to Sugarbush....................................

thetrailboss · Nov 22, 2014

BushMogulMaster said:
My guess - Sky Trac is still trying to gain a hold on a market share. Probably priced more competitively, and they are known to do quality work.

I figured that was what was going on. And nice to see you! Let me know if you are in Utah.

BushMogulMaster · Nov 22, 2014

thetrailboss said:
I figured that was what was going on. And nice to see you! Let me know if you are in Utah.

Might be out for the NSAA winter show. We'll see. I'll let you know.

shadyjay · Nov 22, 2014

We did not blow any snow on Upper OG, except at the very top and the flats at Downspout. We got word to make snow on Lower OG on Tuesday, and it came together pretty quick, especially with the new towers. Given temps earlier in the week, we very well could have gotten Upper OG done. The decision was made to go to Lower OG and given the snow we put down on it, I'm sure it was fun today. Those towers did really well and worked very good in this week's cold temps. I think the decision to move to Lower OG was a good one, especially since it was known that HG would not be ready to spin for the weekend.

Also, having Lower OG open on Day 1 helps to take the pressure off Downspout. We all know how Downspout can get when its the only trail open! And without HG right away, maybe Downspout will hold together better early season.

I drove by the parking lot around 2pm and saw cars parked all the way behind our snowmaking compressor building. Looked like quite the crowd!!!

BushMogulMaster · Nov 22, 2014

shadyjay said:
We did not blow any snow on Upper OG, except at the very top and the flats at Downspout. We got word to make snow on Lower OG on Tuesday, and it came together pretty quick, especially with the new towers. Given temps earlier in the week, we very well could have gotten Upper OG done. The decision was made to go to Lower OG and given the snow we put down on it, I'm sure it was fun today. Those towers did really well and worked very good in this week's cold temps. I think the decision to move to Lower OG was a good one, especially since it was known that HG would not be ready to spin for the weekend.

Also, having Lower OG open on Day 1 helps to take the pressure off Downspout. We all know how Downspout can get when its the only trail open! And without HG right away, maybe Downspout will hold together better early season.

I drove by the parking lot around 2pm and saw cars parked all the way behind our snowmaking compressor building. Looked like quite the crowd!!!

Glad to hear it, Jay. Tell Paul and Mike that Patrick, Jon, and Dan said "Hello" from Colorado.

Tin · Nov 22, 2014

shadyjay said:
We did not blow any snow on Upper OG, except at the very top and the flats at Downspout. We got word to make snow on Lower OG on Tuesday, and it came together pretty quick, especially with the new towers. Given temps earlier in the week, we very well could have gotten Upper OG done. The decision was made to go to Lower OG and given the snow we put down on it, I'm sure it was fun today. Those towers did really well and worked very good in this week's cold temps. I think the decision to move to Lower OG was a good one, especially since it was known that HG would not be ready to spin for the weekend.

Also, having Lower OG open on Day 1 helps to take the pressure off Downspout. We all know how Downspout can get when its the only trail open! And without HG right away, maybe Downspout will hold together better early season.

I drove by the parking lot around 2pm and saw cars parked all the way behind our snowmaking compressor building. Looked like quite the crowd!!!

So when was it known HG wouldn't spin? Nice job on short notice.

HowieT2 · Nov 22, 2014

They have the part and the repair is done from what I understand, but they can't run it until the state tram inspector returns.

had a nice day making turns. Thanks shady!

shadyjay · Nov 22, 2014

Good to hear! Lower OG has a lot of ditches/waterbars/stream crossings down below the germ chute (aka - the closed off portion) that require a lot of snow to fill in but those new towers did the job pretty good and fast. It is amazing since earlier in the week, there was merely a dusting of snow on it and we were driving the truck up the work road (Middle Jester as it crosses Lower OG). You really don't realize how much snow it takes to fill in those waterbars unless you see the trail without snow on it. Downspout, too, with the mountain bike berms.

BTW, we are still looking for snowmakers if anyone is looking for a job... day and night shifts available!

benski · Nov 23, 2014

Heavens gate was fixed and they were testing it today.

thetrailboss · Nov 23, 2014

benski said:
Heavens gate was fixed and they were testing it today.

There are two ways to think about this latest situation. One is that it didn't work out as hoped and it is what it is. The other is that this was another fail and just demonstrates that they are not what they used to be. Hell, Sugarloaf has been open now for two weeks. If I was a passholder still I'd probably be quite disappointed, especially with the cold weather and snow. Other places are eating your lunch. It just seemed like the last few years they've "missed" opening early or on time for one of many reasons. This time it is lifts...and after a season where they got a lot of bad PR over lifts and lift problems. I understand that things happen, but they closed the first weekend of May and had all summer to do the work that needed to be done.

I like Sugarbush, but I guess in hindsight that the good early seasons that I had there ('07, '08 ) were more due to the fact that they were lucky (early snow, early cold, no lift issues) than planning.

And I am not taking anything away from the guys on the ground. This really is a management thing IMHO. They just don't seem "hungry" anymore and they are losing pace with the competition and becoming more of a subpar ski experience.

benski · Nov 23, 2014

They have opened on time for the last couple of years. I heard heavens gate would have been on windhold saturday if it was not broken.

shadyjay · Nov 23, 2014

For the past couple of years, we have opened top2bottom, and last year had both Jester and Upper OG. The date we try to strive for is the Saturday before Thanksgiving. Some years that actual calendar "date" varies, due to Thanksgiving's position. We were also able to get Pushover open for Thanksgiving weekend last year. During the 09/10 season, we missed the opening by a couple of weeks, but that was due to mother nature and her curveballs. Back in the days when ME was the early mountain, I don't ever recall top2bot for opening weekend.

EDIT: Just realized this is post #1000 in this thread!!!

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