This time it's London...

dmc said:

ChileMass said:

dmc said:

ChileMass said:

The question is - when are we justified in standing up for democracy? At what point do we take the lead in defending the most successful type of government in history? Everyone want freedom and democracy, and this isn't just a re-hash of the old line "inside every gook is an American trying to get out".

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Thats a pretty cocky statement..
I'm not sure our version of democracy is for everyone.. I agreed it's awesome.. But...
You know that Iraq will imediatly go into a civil war as soon as we leave..
It's going to be divided into three countries and don't see any problem with that...

I just don't know if democracy will work for every person in the world... Especially trabla based societies...

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There are examples such as Jordan, where a consitutional monarchy reports to an elected parliament, more in the British style. Nothing wrong with that at all and a good precedent for other Islamic countries to follow.

We need their oil, they need our technology, medicine and democartic institutions. Our interests are inter-related. We need to help the region enter the 21st century.

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Why do they need to enter the 21st century?
Why do they need our democratic institutions?
Why can't they just select the kind of government they want?

what gives us the right to ordain what they need to do?

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Every country needs to enter the 21st century because the global economy requires it. Especially the world's 5th-largest oil producer.

The citizens of Iraq want democratic institutions, even if they cannot come out in public and demand them for fear of repercussions. Democracy depends on the rule of law and respect for personal property rights, which must be upheld by laws and courts selected by the people. Instititions such as parliaments, executive offices and courts support these rights.

Democracy has flourished in places thought impossible - China is the obvious example. It can and will work in the Middle East as well.

The terrorists in the Middle East do not want democracy, they want a theocracy based on Islamic law. That would seem to be fine, except for fanatics who interpret the Koran to require shunning or killing non-believers. This is where it breaks down. This is why we have separation of church and state in western democracy. Otherwise, some idiot ultra-right-wing Christian could get elected, enact laws that say kill everyone who's not like us, and we'd be just like the terrorists in Iraq. We are helping these people to see the need for secular democracy and I'm sure they already understand its benefits.

ChileMass said:

dmc said:

ChileMass said:

dmc said:

ChileMass said:

The question is - when are we justified in standing up for democracy? At what point do we take the lead in defending the most successful type of government in history? Everyone want freedom and democracy, and this isn't just a re-hash of the old line "inside every gook is an American trying to get out".

Click to expand...

Thats a pretty cocky statement..
I'm not sure our version of democracy is for everyone.. I agreed it's awesome.. But...
You know that Iraq will imediatly go into a civil war as soon as we leave..
It's going to be divided into three countries and don't see any problem with that...

I just don't know if democracy will work for every person in the world... Especially trabla based societies...

Click to expand...

There are examples such as Jordan, where a consitutional monarchy reports to an elected parliament, more in the British style. Nothing wrong with that at all and a good precedent for other Islamic countries to follow.

We need their oil, they need our technology, medicine and democartic institutions. Our interests are inter-related. We need to help the region enter the 21st century.

Click to expand...

Why do they need to enter the 21st century?
Why do they need our democratic institutions?
Why can't they just select the kind of government they want?

what gives us the right to ordain what they need to do?

Click to expand...

Every country needs to enter the 21st century because the global economy requires it. Especially the world's 5th-largest oil producer.

The citizens of Iraq want democratic institutions, even if they cannot come out in public and demand them for fear of repercussions. Democracy depends on the rule of law and respect for personal property rights, which must be upheld by laws and courts selected by the people. Instititions such as parliaments, executive offices and courts support these rights.

Democracy has flourished in places thought impossible - China is the obvious example. It can and will work in the Middle East as well.

The terrorists in the Middle East do not want democracy, they want a theocracy based on Islamic law. That would seem to be fine, except for fanatics who interpret the Koran to require shunning or killing non-believers. This is where it breaks down. This is why we have separation of church and state in western democracy. Otherwise, some idiot ultra-right-wing Christian could get elected, enact laws that say kill everyone who's not like us, and we'd be just like the terrorists in Iraq. We are helping these people to see the need for secular democracy and I'm sure they already understand its benefits.

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I'm still uncomfortable pushing our values on societies... I think a lot of why people hate is is because of this...

How would you feel if Iraq voted and selected a theocracy instead of a democracy?

One paragraph at a time in response to Chilemass:

1) You ask “when are we justified in standing up for democracy?” Fair question. If you want to set the US up as the Defenders of Democracy, you have to be prepared to consider the flip side of the coin- when are we justified in NOT standing up for democracy? Do the Iraqi’s deserve democracy more than 95% of Africa? Is the suffering of the Iraqi’s more pressing than that of an entire continent? Then, do we go into North Korea? Back into Vietnam? What about China? Is democracy better? I certainly think so. Others find it, too. Russia did, Chile did, Bolivia is, and all without our direct military intervention. I’ll concede Afghanistan, since I support the reasoning, and initial strategy, for our action there.

2) It’s a values-driven political question. I disagree with both the values and the politics of BushCo. I don’t believe they knew what they were doing before going in to Iraq (and the preponderance of evidence seems to support that conclusion), and I don’t believe they know what they’re going to do next. If they knew the UN would support it, why not wait? The advantages to waiting (unity, support, more time to prepare, access to planning and intelligence) far outweigh the disadvantages (I can’t think of any). Which European political skins have we saved? Blair gets blasted regularly (he’s endured what, 3 no confidence votes?), Spain’s government got booted, France is moving even further towards socialism, Schroeder’s getting creamed. The US went in six to nine months before it would have been militarily advantageous- waiting for the UN would have given us time to equip our troops appropriately and position them better (that said, they did a fantastic job, militarily speaking- and with all those horrible cuts Clinton did that obviously ruined the US military). The US and Britain prove we’re willing to stand up to bullies and terrorists? Great. Especially now that the majority of the world considers us to be bullies, and that’s brought the terrorists out of the woodwork.

3) I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one.

4) Peru, Andorra and North Korea don’t have a permanent seat on the Security Council. I don’t agree that increasing the power and prestige of anyone is necessarily a bad thing, and I certainly don’t agree that it’s a zero-sum game. We can certainly gain respect by being the bigger man, and allowing other countries to have their say, and maybe even listening once in a while. There’s a difference between hesitating while waiting for the French and Germans and spending time to come up with a solution that can be agreed upon. I didn’t vote for BushCo, and I don’t trust them, either philosophically or to know what they’re doing.

5) 9/11 cost a lot of jobs, no doubt, and the world economy absolutely depends on stability. How is the US helping that by going cowboy whenever we want? War is always messy- that’s the main reason it should be avoided whenever possible, and used only as an absolute last resort. Killing all the reactionary fanatical Islamic terrorist bastards is a great idea. Ever heard of the Hydra? Going in hacking and slashing doesn’t work- you have to get at the fundamental root causes.

Sorry this is so long- I like one-shot answers rather than bits and pieces. And, sorry this is veering towards Iraq again and away from London. But, it's all relative.

How would you feel if Iraq voted and selected a theocracy instead of a democracy?

Awesome question. Certainly bears repeating.

dmc said:

I'm still uncomfortable pushing our values on societies... I think a lot of why people hate is is because of this...

How would you feel if Iraq voted and selected a theocracy instead of a democracy?

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I completely agree with you that people need to be able to select their own government, but as we've pointed out there's all sort of flavors of democracy. Maybe the Jordanian model is best in the Middle East. Some people would not consider China to be a democracy, but at least they are a lot more democratic than they were under Mao.

If Iraq elects a theocracy (a definite possibility BTW), they will be a lot like Iran, and unfortunately will be ostracized by a lot of the world if they choose to form a government around the Shia interpretation of Islam. This is where the problem is with Islam and the west. It's not a problem of religion, it's a problem of separation of church and state. Radical Islam requires its believers to disassociate with non-believers and allows for killing those that offend their religion. This is obviously where we westerners need to learn more about the Shia and how not to piss them off and give them respect so we can all get along in our interconnected world.

But - thank God (irony intended) the US founding fathers got it right, because as an atheist, I'd probably have to be living in a guarded compound in Montana or near the Arctic Circle based on the Christian fanaticism I see in the US today.

The US is helping the Iraqis and other Islamic people learn that secular (non-religious) democracy based upon popularly-elected institutions have been proven to be superior to communism or rule by dictatorship. These are new and disruptive concepts, which they will get used to and learn over time to value as we do.

ctenidae said:

How would you feel if Iraq voted and selected a theocracy instead of a democracy?

Awesome question. Certainly bears repeating.

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How about this one...
What if they decided via a majority vote to bring Sadam back?

Now you're reaching.

dmc said:

ctenidae said:

How would you feel if Iraq voted and selected a theocracy instead of a democracy?

Awesome question. Certainly bears repeating.

Click to expand...

How about this one...
What if they decided via a majority vote to bring Sadam back?

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I no one thing.... that would make this country look like the biggest bunch of idiots ever, did u know sadam hates fruit loops(sry had to add that)

ctenidae said:

Now you're reaching.

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Just throwing it out there...
People still support Saddam there - no matter what GWB says....

awf170 said:

dmc said:

ctenidae said:

How would you feel if Iraq voted and selected a theocracy instead of a democracy?

Awesome question. Certainly bears repeating.

Click to expand...

How about this one...
What if they decided via a majority vote to bring Sadam back?

Click to expand...

I no one thing.... that would make this country look like the biggest bunch of idiots ever, did u know sadam hates fruit loops(sry had to add that)

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He wears "tidey whiteys" too...

dmc said:

He wears "tidey whiteys" too...

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Phew - ugly mental image! Thanks a lot..... :wink:

ChileMass said:

dmc said:

He wears "tidey whiteys" too...

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Phew - ugly mental image! Thanks a lot..... :wink:

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Nice one!
I've got your tyrant right here...
In my pants!

dmc said:

ChileMass said:

dmc said:

He wears "tidey whiteys" too...

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Phew - ugly mental image! Thanks a lot..... :wink:

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SWEET!!!! I hope he burns in hell.....

I think Saddam's special punishment in Hell will be wearing damp tighty whities. Such an itch they give you!

ctenidae - here's my response:

1 - We ARE the defenders of democracy and have been since 1917. The Euros get all caught up in their socialist knickers and we get called in every other decade to sort it out. We screwed up in Vietnam, but other than that we're 10-1 all-time. Africa unfortunately does not have the oil Iraq does, it's that simple. And we have a longstanding policy of defending Israel against its neighbors. Africa is next on the list, however, and hopefuly will not have to be helped at the point of a gun (I realize I am making some of your points here).

2 - You're mixing politics and values again and basing your position on style. Would fewer people have been killed if Kerry had been elected? Who knows? Maybe the insurgents would have been even more emboldened if the US resolve were perceieved to be weaker. Maybe the "eventual Iraqi civil war" would already be started if we had pulled out. Who knows? At least there's no civil war going on now, and the possibility exists for a democratic Iraq.

2A - Here's another news flash - the rest of the world doesn't hate us, they envy us. They want to be us. They are a 13-year-old boy with bad teeth and pimples and we are a smoking hot 22-year-old babe who doesn't even know he's alive. We are the Porsche every poor guy wants when he walks by the lot, and he has to work his ass off for 20 years to get it but he finally does. We have it all but for some of us it's still not enough because we aren't perfect. Quit beating yourselves (and me) up and realize we are all doing our best, including W and the government.

3 - Thanks.

4 - Power in the UN is absolutely a zero-sum game, which is why the US has largely never played by the rules and another reason why the rest of world envies us - because we can do whatever we want and get away with it. In that respect it may suck to be a Frenchman if the US' interests lie against you, but for us it is a terrific thing. I will agree abusing this power needs to be closely monitored.

5 - We tried for decades to put money into Iraq and all it did was increase Saddam's Swiss bank account. Cowboy diplomacy is not my preference, but at long last we are getting the changes we wanted in the area as democracy takes hold.

ChileMass said:

2A - Here's another news flash - the rest of the world doesn't hate us, they envy us. They want to be us. They are a 13-year-old boy with bad teeth and pimples and we are a smoking hot 22-year-old babe who doesn't even know he's alive. We are the Porsche every poor guy wants when he walks by the lot, and he has to work his ass off for 20 years to get it but he finally does. We have it all but for some of us it's still not enough because we aren't perfect. Quit beating yourselves (and me) up and realize we are all doing our best, including W and the government.

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PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULEASE!!!
Not everybody craves what we have... Thats so cocky...
Some people are happy with more spirtual things...

GWB may be doing his best.. But that kid with downs syndrome in the Special Olympics does his best to run the 100yard dash too.....

They(Karl Rove) are making this stuff up as they go along... Ask one question to his cabinet and you get all different answers...

dmc said:

PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULEASE!!!
Not everybody craves what we have... Thats so cocky...
Some people are happy with more spirtual things...

GWB may be doing his best.. But that kid with downs syndrome in the Special Olympics does his best to run the 100yard dash too.....

They(Karl Rove) are making this stuff up as they go along... Ask one question to his cabinet and you get all different answers...

Click to expand...

France and Germany don't have an immigration problem. We do because people WANT to be here. People are willing to risk their lives to come here. Actions say a lot.

Oh... and you think my words are offensive? To pull in that Special Olympics analogy is pretty heinous.

-Stephen

2 - You're mixing politics and values again and basing your position on style.

Absolutely. I don't think you can seperate politics from values. The conservatives are tthe (political) party of values, aren't they? I happen to disagree with 99.9% of them.


4 - Power in the UN is absolutely a zero-sum game
Again, I disagree. It is possible to accomplish things without there being a winner and a loser. It is possible for everyone to get what they need.

I will agree abusing this power needs to be closely monitored.
Agreed.

We tried for decades to put money into Iraq and all it did was increase Saddam's Swiss bank account.
That's because the money was being put in Saddam's Swiss bank account. By Bush Sr andumsfield, primarily. Where do you think he got all those nast WMDs?

Stephen said:

dmc said:

PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULEASE!!!
Not everybody craves what we have... Thats so cocky...
Some people are happy with more spirtual things...

GWB may be doing his best.. But that kid with downs syndrome in the Special Olympics does his best to run the 100yard dash too.....

They(Karl Rove) are making this stuff up as they go along... Ask one question to his cabinet and you get all different answers...

Click to expand...

France and Germany don't have an immigration problem. We do because people WANT to be here. People are willing to risk their lives to come here. Actions say a lot.

Oh... and you think my words are offensive? To pull in that Special Olympics analogy is pretty heinous.

-Stephen

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Sorry if I offended you... Actually afte what you said about me yesterday..
I'm not...

But to anybody else that I actually respect.. I aplogize... Was trying to make a point that all kinds of people try with the best of intentions...

But the road to hell is pave with good intentions..

People want to come here for cash... Plain and simple.. They make their $$ here and send it back to where they came from...