JimG. said:
Just re-read your post and realized you're being positive...I'm getting too worked up over this, I'm gonna get some work done.
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This time it's London...
- Thread starter JimG.
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Just re-read your post and realized you're being positive...I'm getting too worked up over this, I'm gonna get some work done.
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My point is it's simply human nature. I don't know that there is anyone/anything that can change that. I'm trying to guide my daughter to become an honest, respectful and generally good little person. Quite frankly I'd rather direct my energy towards her than at some dream of transforming the entire human race...JimG. said:
blacknblue
New member
My co-worker's sister-in-law was in the train just behind the one that got blown up. If she had been five minutes earlier going to work, she would have been on that train. 
SkiDog
New member
blacknblue said:My co-worker's sister-in-law was in the train just behind the one that got blown up. If she had been five minutes earlier going to work, she would have been on that train.
Theres something to be said about being on time..
Thankfully she's ok...
M
blacknblue
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Greg, I'm with you on this. I don't think it's cynical--just realistic. This didn't start with Bush's invasion of Iraq or even the Crusades. This has been the consistent behavior of the human race for the extent of recorded history.Greg said:
dmc
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JimG. said:
No I was serious... And I agree with you...
The killing will never stop unless we can try and get along somehow..
Kill one and 2 tkae the place... It's perpetual..
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ctenidae
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I'm not so sure you can seperate Iraq from any terrorist bombings since the US invaded. The Madrid bombings were a direct result of Spain's support of US policy, and considering the results of the election immediately following, you'd be hardpressed to come up with any other reason for it. I would tend to think the London bombings are also related to Britain's involvement in Iraq, with a healthy dose of G8 thrown in.
9/11, obviously, didn't have anything to do with Iraq, but Iraq is certainly a result of 9/11. You can't say Madrid had nothing to do with Iraq because 9/11 happened first. The simple fact is, as reported by the US State Department, incidences of worldwide terror attacks has increased signifigantly since the US led invasion of Iraq. Clearly the invasion hasn't helped to silence terrorists anywhere, and there's some evidence it has contributed to the rise in attacks.
No one will argue that Saddam was a nice guy, and most will agree that the world is better off without him in power. The problems most "liberals" have are with the methods used to remove him, and the multiplicity of reasons given for it.
That said, I think we can all agree the attacks on London (and Madrid, and everywhere else) are horrible things, and our hearts go out to the victims.
9/11, obviously, didn't have anything to do with Iraq, but Iraq is certainly a result of 9/11. You can't say Madrid had nothing to do with Iraq because 9/11 happened first. The simple fact is, as reported by the US State Department, incidences of worldwide terror attacks has increased signifigantly since the US led invasion of Iraq. Clearly the invasion hasn't helped to silence terrorists anywhere, and there's some evidence it has contributed to the rise in attacks.
No one will argue that Saddam was a nice guy, and most will agree that the world is better off without him in power. The problems most "liberals" have are with the methods used to remove him, and the multiplicity of reasons given for it.
That said, I think we can all agree the attacks on London (and Madrid, and everywhere else) are horrible things, and our hearts go out to the victims.
dmc
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ctenidae said:
Any death - be it American, English or Iraqi is horrible...
My problem with the Iraq war is we we're misslead into rushing into this thing.. I supported the war initially based upon WMDs...
We did not need to rush into this war... We had Sadam contained...
We should've finished cleaning up the Taliban and Al Quiada in Afgahnistan and Pakistan before taking resources to Iraq..
We should've had many more troops to seal off the boarders and seal up the munitions dumps, etc...
We should've forseen the insurgency - Powell and Bush Sr. did... But Rove,Cheney and Bush did not...
We should've sent our guys over these with better armour on thier trucks and hum-vs...
We should've followed the Powell Docterine... Instead we watch GWB politically emasculate him...
Lots of should've(s).... I know...
Greg said:
And by doing so you are making a difference in our future. You can't change other people, but you can change yourself and your children by how you raise them.
So you aren't that cynical or you wouldn't bother to teach her right.
blacknblue said:
And those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We've done a crappy job of learning up to this point. Doesn't mean we'll never learn. I know I won't change anybody else, but I sure can control how I think and react and teach my children the same. Lots of little baby steps go a long way.
Now I sound like some 12 step program :lol: !
loafer89
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Tettorist are not born that way
My sister lives in London with her two boys and her husband her sons are 1 and 2 years old my son is 5 and we live in New York and this is the world they will grow-up in. It sucks pure and simple. There is a very simple formula for making terrorist take someone who has nothing not enough food no light no power no hope take them to a camp feed them cothes them give the a warp version relegon tell them the only way to have a better life is in the next one. In this country we have the KKK, Skinheads, and a host of other racially motavated group that as main stream American we are digusted by. That is what main stream Muslims feel about this fringe group. Most Muslims ignored them figuring they go away. Lets be realalitic how often do you think about the KKK. The only way to stop terrorism is though education there and ours.
PS This is loafer wife again can't figure out how to get under my own name sorry
My sister lives in London with her two boys and her husband her sons are 1 and 2 years old my son is 5 and we live in New York and this is the world they will grow-up in. It sucks pure and simple. There is a very simple formula for making terrorist take someone who has nothing not enough food no light no power no hope take them to a camp feed them cothes them give the a warp version relegon tell them the only way to have a better life is in the next one. In this country we have the KKK, Skinheads, and a host of other racially motavated group that as main stream American we are digusted by. That is what main stream Muslims feel about this fringe group. Most Muslims ignored them figuring they go away. Lets be realalitic how often do you think about the KKK. The only way to stop terrorism is though education there and ours.
PS This is loafer wife again can't figure out how to get under my own name sorry
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We already have an 8 page discussion on the war. Please continue this topic in that thread.dmc said:
pizza
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Greg said:
Who the heck do you think you are? The owner of the board? If you want to boss people around, why don't you go start your own board someplace, mmmkay??
/sorry. i couldn't resist.
//i'm in a goofy mood today.
///seriously, those london bombings sucked. godspeed.
////i like slashes.
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Thanks. We probably needed to lighten the tone here a bit.pizza said:
In any event, my thoughts go out to those affected today. As Americans this definitely hits too close to home. It's one F'ed up world we live in...
SkiDog
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ctenidae said:
The question I would ask is. Do you think the terrorist attacks would have increased after 9/11 no matter whether we went into Iraq or not? I think they would've. It was only a matter of time.
Obviously Iraq is a seprate issue from Al Queda, but both were/are problems that needed to be dealt with one way or the other..timing and motives may have been off, but either way both issues needed to be addressed.
M
ctenidae
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Greg said:
As human beings this definitely hits too close to home. Sign o' the times, I'm afraid. Do right by your neighborhood, and hope that karma pays attention.
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Here's the quote on that Islamist Web site:
So it's not just in response to Iraq. Should we all withdraw from Afghanistan too?
Notice this statement:Scumbags said:
So it's not just in response to Iraq. Should we all withdraw from Afghanistan too?
ctenidae
Active member
I don't think terrorist attacks would have increased without Iraq, skidog, at least not on the level we've seen. Part of the motivation for the 9/11 attacks was US presence in Saudi Arabia (Mecca, and all that), so that factor has been in place for quite some time (I have no problem with the motivation for the Gulf War, though it could have been prosecuted a bit more fully). I think the 9/11 attack was the successful conclusion to a series of attempts, and a much needed (to them) boost to al Qaeda's credibility (and hence bin Laden's ability to continue with his lunacy), and achieved the goal of goading the US into doing something that would allow al Qaeda to continue recruiting and bombing. The US played along, and we're seeing the results. I'm not saying we should have done nothing- Afghanistan started out as a good move and had the potential to be very effective. Branching off into Iraq is, I think, what al Qaeda was hoping for, since there was no love lost between Hussein and bin Laden, anyway, and Iraq has turned into a breeding ground for new terrorists.
So, I don't think al Qaeda and Iraq are seperate issues at all. Iraq is now feeding al Qaeda with fresh troops adn traing grounds, as well as a rallying point and war cry. The al Qaeda group claiming responsibility for London says they did it in retaliation to Britain's actions in Iraq. Iraq and al Qaeda are now inextricably linked.
So, I don't think al Qaeda and Iraq are seperate issues at all. Iraq is now feeding al Qaeda with fresh troops adn traing grounds, as well as a rallying point and war cry. The al Qaeda group claiming responsibility for London says they did it in retaliation to Britain's actions in Iraq. Iraq and al Qaeda are now inextricably linked.
SkiDog
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ctenidae said:
point taken...dont know that I fully agree, but I can see the perspective.
M
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