Greg said:We all seem much calmer today. Thank you, everyone.
:lol: Seriously, a day makes some difference. I keep telling my boss that the best way to grow a business is to allow constructive confrontation.
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Greg said:We all seem much calmer today. Thank you, everyone.
dmc said:ctenidae said:I simply can't agree, Skidog, Chilemass, and Stephen. Mostly because the end does not justify the means. Sure, Saddam was a bad guy who needed to be dealt with. Did it have to be done by lying to the American public, circumventing the UN, allienating most of the world, and spending $80 billion a year? I don't think so.
As well as making the Iraqi peoples life a living hell when we blast through their towns looking for insurgents that should've NEVER made it across the boarder to begin with.....
wow... that was a long sentence..
SkiDog said:I guess we shouldve just let saddam stay in power and wait until he actually "attacked" us right? Lets not try to avoid that by getting there first or anything.?
Seems like thats what you want, please tell me i'm wrong?
M
dmc said:SkiDog said:I guess we shouldve just let saddam stay in power and wait until he actually "attacked" us right? Lets not try to avoid that by getting there first or anything.?
Seems like thats what you want, please tell me i'm wrong?
M
Your wrong...
And actually I'm appalled that you say such a thing to prove a point against me..
I can't even begin to defend myself I'm so pissed at your comment....
dmc said:SkiDog said:I guess we shouldve just let saddam stay in power and wait until he actually "attacked" us right? Lets not try to avoid that by getting there first or anything.?
Seems like thats what you want, please tell me i'm wrong?
M
Your wrong...
And actually I'm appalled that you say such a thing to prove a point against me..
I can't even begin to defend myself I'm so pissed at your comment....
SkiDog said:dmc said:SkiDog said:I guess we shouldve just let saddam stay in power and wait until he actually "attacked" us right? Lets not try to avoid that by getting there first or anything.?
Seems like thats what you want, please tell me i'm wrong?
M
Your wrong...
And actually I'm appalled that you say such a thing to prove a point against me..
I can't even begin to defend myself I'm so pissed at your comment....
Im just trying to get a handle on where you're coming from...while I agree that the "motives" may have been less than admirable the problem DID exist and needed to be dealt with..
thats just how I see it...I wasn't trying to make you angry..again...no offense meant...
M
Any death - be it American, English or Iraqi is horrible...
My problem with the Iraq war is we we're misslead into rushing into this thing.. I supported the war initially based upon WMDs...
We did not need to rush into this war... We had Sadam contained...
We should've finished cleaning up the Taliban and Al Quiada in Afgahnistan and Pakistan before taking resources to Iraq..
We should've had many more troops to seal off the boarders and seal up the munitions dumps, etc...
We should've forseen the insurgency - Powell and Bush Sr. did... But Rove,Cheney and Bush did not...
We should've sent our guys over these with better armour on thier trucks and hum-vs...
We should've followed the Powell Docterine... Instead we watch GWB politically emasculate him...
Lots of should've(s).... I know...
ctenidae said:First off, just because Saddam played games with the UN doesn't make it okay for us to do so, as well, unless we're of the same moral and ethical quality? I think the US is better than that. Sorry to say, but it's sort of a Republican theme lately- "What we did isn't so bad- just look at what Clinton did!"
Second, I find it extremely unlikely (as does the rest of the Middle East, Israel included) that Saddam could ever have attacked the US or directly threatened our interests. There is no evidence he had any WMD since what, 1995? or that he had any capability to strike the US, or that he had any terrorist networks, or that any relationship other than mutual disgust and hatred existed between him and bin Laden. Does that mean we should have left him there? No, but as was said before, the UN would have authorized force "within six months, anyway". Why did we have to jump the gun and go it cowboy-style?
So, yeah, SkiDog, you're wrong.
dmc said:SkiDog said:I guess we shouldve just let saddam stay in power and wait until he actually "attacked" us right? Lets not try to avoid that by getting there first or anything.?
Seems like thats what you want, please tell me i'm wrong?
M
Your wrong...
And actually I'm appalled that you say such a thing to prove a point against me..
I can't even begin to defend myself I'm so pissed at your comment....
dmc said:Apparently I let everyone know where I'm coming from in another thread...
But I'll quote myslef from this thread - apologies to the moderators - I tried to link to it but couldnt figure out how..
SkiDog said:I mean what "motives" would have made this extraction of Saddam "ok"?
M
dmc said:SkiDog said:I mean what "motives" would have made this extraction of Saddam "ok"?
M
Who's motives?
If he had WMD's I would STILL be suporting this war..
Cause there's a direct threat to us and our allies...
If the DID help in 911 I would STILL be suporting this war..
I feel terrible for the civilians that died under his rule.. But we had the Kurds protected..And there's other murderors around the world - and I'm uncomfortable with the US going in and rotecting EVERY person in the world thats being oppressed..
Fact is... Civilians are dying every day in Iraq in the crossfire between the US and the insurgents..
And that makes me sad...
I know good stuff is happening over there but the deaths of innocents is something I just can't get over..
dmc said:Fact is... Civilians are dying every day in Iraq in the crossfire between the US and the insurgents..
And that makes me sad...
I know good stuff is happening over there but the deaths of innocents is something I just can't get over..
SkiDog said:Deaths of innocents are always hard I agree...I also STRONGLY agree that we shouldn't feel (the US) that we need to "police" the world..
JimG. said:dmc said:Fact is... Civilians are dying every day in Iraq in the crossfire between the US and the insurgents..
And that makes me sad...
I know good stuff is happening over there but the deaths of innocents is something I just can't get over..
And these are the people who matter most. Their lives were hell under Saddam, and their lives are still hell now. They can't even go outside without the fear of being killed.
Nothing has really changed for them. In that light, why should they support us (I say this knowing that many do support us)?
dmc said:ctenidae said:I simply can't agree, Skidog, Chilemass, and Stephen. Mostly because the end does not justify the means. Sure, Saddam was a bad guy who needed to be dealt with. Did it have to be done by lying to the American public, circumventing the UN, allienating most of the world, and spending $80 billion a year? I don't think so.
As well as making the Iraqi peoples life a living hell when we blast through their towns looking for insurgents that should've NEVER made it across the boarder to begin with.....
wow... that was a long sentence..
JimG. said:And these are the people who matter most. Their lives were hell under Saddam, and their lives are still hell now. They can't even go outside without the fear of being killed.
Nothing has really changed for them. In that light, why should they support us (I say this knowing that many do support us)?
dmc said:SkiDog said:Deaths of innocents are always hard I agree...I also STRONGLY agree that we shouldn't feel (the US) that we need to "police" the world..
Without WMDs and the 911 conspiracy the only thing left is us policing Iraq...
At the cost of thousands of lives, billions of dollars, lower popularity and cooperation amongst the world, a divide homefront and the maiming of thousands of our great soldiers....
I'm just not down with the whole deal anymore..
And frankly - I'm really mad...
You support Colin Powell?? Check out the Powell docterine:
"military action should be used only as a last resort and only if there is a clear risk to national security by the intended target; the force, when used, should be overwhelming and disproportionate to the force used by the enemy; there must be strong support for the campaign by the general public; and there must be a clear exit strategy from the conflict in which the military is engaged. "