Honda CRV v. Toyota Rav4 v. Subaru Forester

deadheadskier · Feb 21, 2011

maybe I will. I just don't trust that the company will offer recalls on design flaws. The whole head gasket issue that went on for what? a decade? That should've been a recall.

from a utility/practicality stand point, Subarus certainly have a lot of positive attributes at a fair value.

Realiability is a big factor for me though. My maintenance experience with Hyundai has been incredible. 135K miles, two minor fixes under warranty and then just basic maintenance.

lerops · Feb 21, 2011

Edd said:
I have had the Premium for a year and pretty much love it. The sunroof and winter package are nice.

I had no desire for the turbo but the expense alone would have kept me from it. Going from memory I think it requires premium gas and it might be less reliable than the base engine as well.

Thanks Ed. I ran the numbers a little bit and it did not look too bad. Maybe 10-15%.

It probably requires more maintenance in more frequent oil changes, but why would it be less reliable? Also, I read somewhere that the engine on non-turbo Forester 2011 is new, which might bring reliability issues of its own.

Sunroof is truly amazing though. So, is the visibility in the car, windows are huge!

Edd · Feb 21, 2011

lerops said:
Thanks Ed. I ran the numbers a little bit and it did not look too bad. Maybe 10-15%.

It probably requires more maintenance in more frequent oil changes, but why would it be less reliable? Also, I read somewhere that the engine on non-turbo Forester 2011 is new, which might bring reliability issues of its own.

Sunroof is truly amazing though. So, is the visibility in the car, windows are huge!

Again, I was just going from memory as far as reliability stats. Camp will probably jump in at some point and correct me. As far as numbers, I wonder if the insurance would be more expensive too. The car isn't only worth more, but it's faster.

Whenever she drives it my girlfriend always mentions the lack of blind spots. Nobody gets in for a ride without commenting on how big the sunroof is.

Geoff · Feb 21, 2011

Edd said:
It seems I read why the U.S. has so few diesels from time to time and it goes in one ear and out the other because I feel like it's all bull***. It simply must be less profitable for some companies if the U.S. were to embrace them.

I think you'll come to your senses about Subarus one day...

I'm hoping VW will extend the option package on their TDi Jetta wagon. My GTI has some features like Xenon headlights and leather sport seats that I would have a tough time giving up. On the Jetta TDI wagon, the only thing you can add is a "premium package" that has a sunroof, Nav, USB control of an iPod, and lower profile alloy wheels. If I collapsed my life down to one car, I'd also like to get 4Motion AWD with it. You can get it in Europe configured that way.

I guess they are worried about stealing business from Audi. I've dealt with a few VW/Audi dealers and I have no interest in owning a car where they price gouge for service like that. A VW-only dealer tends to charge service rates that are competitive with everybody else. Audi dealers gouge like Porsche and BMW dealers.

Glenn · Feb 21, 2011

I don't think turbos are any less reliable these days. They've come a long way since the 1980's.

o3jeff · Feb 21, 2011

Glenn said:
I don't think turbos are any less reliable these days. They've come a long way since the 1980's.

Exactly, I have a turbo and it's not like years ago where you have to let them cool down before shutting down, etc. Very fun to drive with little lag. I do run premium gas per manufacturers recomendations.

gmcunni · Feb 21, 2011

I had a 2000 saab 93 turbo. The car with snow tires as a awesome ride in the snow. handled hills and corners great. braking was good too. Only think to keep in mind is keeping RPM low so the turbo doesn't kick in when you are dealing with harsh conditions. regardless of how good the tires were if i spooled up the turbo i would always loose traction. it was fun to play with tho. and as Root mentioned, the cold winter air makes it like a super turbo!

campgottagopee · Feb 21, 2011

lerops said:
Reviving an old thread...

I am finally getting out of the city. Getting a car as well. I am looking at the Forester, but can't decide between the Premium and the Turbo Premium. Any thoughts by someone who might have owned both? I test drove both, but i am looking for a longer term perspective.

And secondly any tips to save on Subaru shopping?

As Edd mentioned with an XT model you'll be burning premium fuel. If you're cool with that I say go for it 'cause they are a blast to drive. Be sure to be faithful when it comes to changing the oil----clean oil will keep that turbo nice and cool which is key for good performance and longevity.

Other than special APR there are no other incentives for Subie right now (or in the past 2 years). We don't need them like other manufactures do;-)

Geoff · Feb 21, 2011

gmcunni said:
I had a 2000 saab 93 turbo. The car with snow tires as a awesome ride in the snow. handled hills and corners great. braking was good too. Only think to keep in mind is keeping RPM low so the turbo doesn't kick in when you are dealing with harsh conditions. regardless of how good the tires were if i spooled up the turbo i would always loose traction. it was fun to play with tho. and as Root mentioned, the cold winter air makes it like a super turbo!

Yeah, but the added wind resistance you get from the denser air more than offsets the boost in engine performance from denser air. I lose about 3 mpg when it's subzero from the dense air.

Snow driving performance doesn't have anything to do with RPM or horsepower. It's going easy on any changes to all the inputs. Steering, braking, accelerating. The car wants to go straight at a constant speed. Anything you do to change that can cause you to lose traction. You can be in the 300 hp club and have perfect control over the car if you drive it properly.

deadheadskier · Feb 21, 2011

Camp

any word on when the deisel Foresters are coming stateside?

campgottagopee · Feb 21, 2011

deadheadskier said:
Camp

any word on when the deisel Foresters are coming stateside?

Nothing official, but we may start seeing them MY2013. One thing for sure is we'll see a deisel be4 a hybrid, that I do know, well, unless Fuji changes their mind.

Dealer meeting is in a few months so I'll have a better idea then.

deadheadskier · Feb 21, 2011

I wonder how succesful someone would be in operating a 'true' import business. Not that I know anything at all about the business behind selling cars.

There just seems to be many desired models from various brands available in Europe that are not available here in the states. I'm sure it's all demographic study based and I'm sure the cost of shipping a car over are large.

For me, a Mazda6 wagon would be high on my list of desired cars to replace mine when that day comes. Apparently they're hugely popular in Australia.

http://www.netcarshow.com/mazda/2011-6_wagon/

campgottagopee · Feb 21, 2011

Be real tough. Getting the cars here is one thing (not to hard), getting them registered and passing inspection in the states is another ( the tough part). The biggest issue one would run into is emmissions.....getting the emmissions in line to pass over here would be BIG bucks. Couldn't even imagine it.

Now exporting is another thing. Some of those dudes do pretty darn good for themselves.

deadheadskier · Feb 21, 2011

Europes standards on emissions aren't as high as the US? that's surprising to me.

campgottagopee · Feb 21, 2011

deadheadskier said:
Europes standards on emissions aren't as high as the US? that's surprising to me.

We have California to thank for that

Glenn · Feb 21, 2011

Diesels are great engines. If they were more widely manufactured, the price would most certainly go down.

And yes, thank you Cali...more specifically CARB for that. Duh!

Geoff · Feb 23, 2011

campgottagopee said:
Be real tough. Getting the cars here is one thing (not to hard), getting them registered and passing inspection in the states is another ( the tough part). The biggest issue one would run into is emmissions.....getting the emmissions in line to pass over here would be BIG bucks. Couldn't even imagine it.

The tough part is DOT crash standards. If the car hasn't already been through the test, you sacrifice 10 cars for crash testing. That's why you don't see grey market Citroens, etc here.

For something like a diesel Subaru, it would be way cheaper to just import the parts you are missing and retrofit them onto a US car. That stays completely under the radar screen in most states. You just tell motor vehicles you converted it to diesel. Probably wouldn't work somewhere like California but you can always register it in a state that doesn't have emissions testing.

riverc0il · Feb 23, 2011

deadheadskier said:
will the diesel be released in the US anytime soon? You would think with the great success that VW has had that Subaru would get in on the action.

Not that I'll be a buyer, it's well documented how I feel about Subarus.

I was jumping on the diesel band wagon a year or two ago... but not so much any more. Both Chevy and Ford now have regular gas cars that get 40 MPG. I think there is still a market for diesel in larger vehicles that can't get there (see the VW Jetta Wagon at just over 40 but is the premium really worth the extra 10ish MPG? Depends on what gas prices do...). Wonder how a diesel CUV or SUV would do?

But the big thing is that car manufacturers are finally starting to push the MPG envelope with standard gas. Two years ago, 30 MPG was great and 35 MPG was hard to find. Fuel economy actually got worse for most models in the 00s! (e.g. I have a 99 Saturn that gets 35+ MPG but Saturn's last few years operating, their best was a 30 MPG eco model...).

I think there would be a big market for an AWD Diesel wagon. IIRC, the diesel VW Wagon outsells the regular engine model. Too bad Subaru doesn't make wagons any more, much less have a diesel one for the US market..... :spin:

riverc0il · Feb 23, 2011

deadheadskier said:
For me, a Mazda6 wagon would be high on my list of desired cars to replace mine when that day comes. Apparently they're hugely popular in Australia.

http://www.netcarshow.com/mazda/2011-6_wagon/

Given your love of Hyundai, I'd be surprised if you didn't have the Elantra Touring in your top position if you are looking at wagons. Fully loaded for just over $20k and its more Euro wagon than US hatch. Way less than Mazda pricing and better fuel economy too. I scraped thoughts on WV's diesel wagon in favor of the Elantra Touring for my top choice for this summer when I get new wheels.

deadheadskier · Feb 23, 2011

Most people I know who drive TDIs get around 50MPG with highway driving, 40ish around the city.

Gas engines have come along way in being tuned for Highway driving, but still lack in the city. A new Hyundai Sonata gets 35mpg on the highway, but low 20s around town. The Elantra 40mpg highway, 29 city.

So the differences are significant. Does diesel offset the several thousand dollar premium you pay at purchase or the higher cost at the pump? Probably not until you've eclipsed 100K miles on the vehicle.
I imagine they have a calculator somewhere on the internet to figure all that out.

One thing I have read is a diesel engine is a bit more fun to drive due to much higher low end torque.

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