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So Who SHOULD Pay for the Backcountry Rescue of a Hiker or Skier?

thetrailboss

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Hammer's post:

I'm all for going after irresponsible hikers (the Eagle Scout rescue is a case in point), but I've been thinking about what would be considered "reasonable and prudent" preparations for a hike (or whatever the standard is). While I believe I've always been prepared on hikes I've gone on, I really don't know if I've met the "official" standard.

And this incident as well as a more recent hiking mishap have me asking, who SHOULD pay for these rescues?

State and local officials say that those who are negligent and irresponsible should foot the bill for their rescue costs. It appears that this is meant to deter people from being so careless. But where is the line?

Vermont has a state law, often quoted, that states when a skier/rider uses a ski area to access backcountry locations, and becomes lost or is not prepared, and is in need of a rescue, then he/she is liable for the costs.

New Hampshire has a same law that applies to hikers, as discussed with the April incident resulting in a $25,000 bill to the 18-year old hiker.

Some say that such harsh laws deter people from calling for help until it is too late. Others say that people need to smarten up and not put others at risk.

So what would you do? What rule would you write and why? Would there be situations when the general public should pay for a rescue?

Have you been rescued?

And what can we do to prevent such rescues in the first place?
 

deadheadskier

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Define Back Country

This is definitely gray area here. At ski resorts, it is expected that all within boundary terrain is swept by ski patrol at the end of the day. Why is not a similar standard set for state parks or maintained trail systems?

I have a hard time seeing how the enforcement can be consistent. Should an injured hiker who needs to be carried out be treated the same as one who happened upon unexpected weather?

I don't know the correct answer, but it certainly seems like it would be difficult to enforce consistently and as with other areas of life, people who have the dough or connections to afford a good lawyer could probably get out of paying.
 

ctenidae

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It should be left to the judgement of the rescuers, on a consensus basis, subject to verification and review by a group associated with the rescuing organization. Seems the'yre the best able to determine the difference between "shit happens" and "Dumbass"
 

thetrailboss

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Define Back Country

This is definitely gray area here. At ski resorts, it is expected that all within boundary terrain is swept by ski patrol at the end of the day. Why is not a similar standard set for state parks or maintained trail systems?

Good point. Outside the ski area boundaries, and adopting the SOLO/WOFA Definition, anything that is more than ONE MILE from the trailhead.

I have a hard time seeing how the enforcement can be consistent. Should an injured hiker who needs to be carried out be treated the same as one who happened upon unexpected weather?

From what I have read, it has to do with the level of preparedness of the participant...and what they were doing.
 

Geoff

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My point of view:

Skiing in-bounds, the sled dog ride to the bottom and the first aid is assumed to be part of your lift ticket fee. I don't think anybody has an argument with that.

If I'm offshore and need to call SeaTow, they get $200/hour to go out there and haul my sorry ass back to the dock. I have insurance to cover that and I've actually used it twice on my power boat. I have two marine VHF radios, a GPS, a current chart, and a compass. It's not a dire emergency but somebody has to come out and tow me back in. I carry towing insurance.

If I show up in the emergency room, they expect to be paid. I carry health insurance to cover that eventuality. My health insurance also covers the ambulance ride to the hospital if I have a heart attack at home. If I crash my car, my auto insurance pays to get my car towed and repaired. I don't see what's so special about back country skiers and hikers? If you carry insurance, it pays. Otherwise, you pay. That's how it works in Europe.
 

drjeff

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It should be left to the judgement of the rescuers, on a consensus basis, subject to verification and review by a group associated with the rescuing organization. Seems the'yre the best able to determine the difference between "shit happens" and "Dumbass"

Agree! However in my book the uber experienced hiker who goes out in horrendous winter weather to try and summit Mt Washington and gets in trouble is just as much a dumb a$$ as the folks in teva's carrying nothing more than a 20oz bottle of poland spring and using their iphone app telling them how to hike and gets lost on a perfect sunny day. :rolleyes:
 

ctenidae

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Agree! However in my book the uber experienced hiker who goes out in horrendous winter weather to try and summit Mt Washington and gets in trouble is just as much a dumb a$$ as the folks in teva's carrying nothing more than a 20oz bottle of poland spring and using their iphone app telling them how to hike and gets lost on a perfect sunny day. :rolleyes:

And they should both be charged for the rescue. Decently prepared, out for a jaunt on Washington when it dumps 5 feet of snow on you in 20 minutes at noon in July, well, that's a freebie.
 

Riverskier

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This is a tough question. I don't believe in any rules/laws where enforcement is subject to the judgment of any group or individual. I am not necessarily opposed to lost or injured hikers being charged for their rescue, but in my opinion it either needs to be subject to everyone, or based on specific quantifiable criteria. However, charging for every rescue I suspect would be unpopular, and coming up with a black and white definition of an unprepared hiker would be extremely difficult.
 

Geoff

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This is a tough question. I don't believe in any rules/laws where enforcement is subject to the judgment of any group or individual. I am not necessarily opposed to lost or injured hikers being charged for their rescue, but in my opinion it either needs to be subject to everyone, or based on specific quantifiable criteria. However, charging for every rescue I suspect would be unpopular, and coming up with a black and white definition of an unprepared hiker would be extremely difficult.

I see no reason why the hiking/outing clubs can't offer insurance as part of their membership. I joined BoatUS to take advantage of their cheap towing insurance. If you want to play, you have to pay.
 

Riverskier

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I see no reason why the hiking/outing clubs can't offer insurance as part of their membership. I joined BoatUS to take advantage of their cheap towing insurance. If you want to play, you have to pay.

I have no problem charging for all rescuces, especially if there were low cost low cost insurance options like you mention. I am not necessarily advocating for this either though. I guess I haven't thought about it enough to form a solid opinion. The only thing I feel strongly about is that is some people are going to be billed for their rescues and others aren't, the criteria for making that decision better be black and white.
 

deadheadskier

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So Geoff, when are you coming south and giving me a tour of Great Bay? You can pick me up right in downtown Newmarket. :grin:
 

madman

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If I ever get into a situation where I need rescue either by bad luck or bad planning I would be willing to pay. I have 40 yrs skiing and almost as many backpacking, Never needed rescue but if I ever do it will because of a serious problem and in life "nothing is free". I do like the idea of insurance and feel if you go into the woods on your own, but cant get out on your own you should pay.
 

Geoff

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So Geoff, when are you coming south and giving me a tour of Great Bay? You can pick me up right in downtown Newmarket. :grin:

My boat is with the builder. The turbodiesel was pulled out and I had him build me a 2 1/2 foot hull extension / swim platform / outboard mounting platform. The project is done other than painting the hull with Imron and shelling out a large pile of green pieces of paper for a 250 hp outboard. I've been unemployed so I stalled the project where it was a year ago.

I've had the boat in Newmarket a few times during fall foliage. Great Bay rides are great when there are 10 foot swells out on the ocean. With the turbodiesel, I could cruise at 45 mph so it didn't take long to get there from Portsmouth. I used to race the Coast Guard guys. With an empty fuel tank, I was slightly faster. With my new setup, I should be much faster since I'm about 500 pounds lighter and 2 1/2 feet longer. Sigh... not this summer.
 

ComeBackMudPuddles

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in europe your lift ticket covers rescue from on-piste incidents, but you are responsible for any off-piste incidents (which would include things like tree skiing in an unmarked glade on jay or sugarbush, for example). you have the option to pay extra (5-10 euros) for insurance to cover off-piste incidents.

i'm not familiar with ski areas offering such extra insurance, but, maybe they should?

regarding backcountry hiking/skiing, does health insurance cover $25,000 search and rescue bills? i have no idea. seems like it should, or you should be able to buy extra coverage if that's your thing.
 

kingdom-tele

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preface- not trying to be a prick, just playing devil's advocate

so whats the difference between these incidents and Billski's most horrible accident, take away all the circumstance and you still have the same result, people needing help -

SAR/volunteer rescue should be just like all other state funded supprt services, we already be paying (bi monthly in my case) - the decision to bill people should be more like a driving ticket

what do you charge a family for finding your dead relative?
 

thetrailboss

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preface- not trying to be a prick, just playing devil's advocate

so whats the difference between these incidents and Billski's most horrible accident, take away all the circumstance and you still have the same result, people needing help -

SAR/volunteer rescue should be just like all other state funded supprt services, we already be paying (bi monthly in my case) - the decision to bill people should be more like a driving ticket

what do you charge a family for finding your dead relative?

The SAR teams would say that the difference is that there have been an increase of people who are underprepared for hiking and outdoor adventures who call for help. If teams are busy going after people who did not prepare and put themselves at risk, there are less rescue personnel and resources for real emergencies.

Plus, as with everything else, resources for such rescue teams are limited.
 

billski

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Having just been the beneficiary of SAR, having needed their services, I have a few observations, but no easy answers.

For starters, very few people who are rescued every go back and thank the SAR teams either by letter, phone or in person. I absolutely made it my #1 priority once I could move again. There is nothing worse than failing to show gratitude for all those that disrupted their personal lives and put themselves at risk to help a stranger. And they do this over and over again.

Second, without SAR, my life, my livelihood and my family's future would have been hugely altered permanently. How can one not be indebted to them or not think to reach out to them?

Many SARs and participating agencies are sorely underfunded. The least a recipent can do is provide a donation. I spoke with one SAR leader who's group has tried to jury-rig and hand-make rescue equipment because they, as volunteers cannot afford it. They also share resources between groups constantly because of this.

The letters and phone calls went out first. I am planning a donation, because without their work I would not be here and I'd have nothing.

I also listened on the way down the mountain in the litter as the crews related stories about how they had to go to court, give depositions and the like in many of their rescue cases. It became clear there is a lot of off-mountain work that goes on after a rescue too.

So I get angry when people who are rescued don't demonstrate appreciation. I also get pissed about frvilous lawsuits ("they didn't get there fast enough") and I support F&G billing for rescue services when hiker negligence is involved. You, as the rescuee owe them, one way or another. The rescuee should also be damn thankful these groups even exist.

I contstantly review what happened over and over and can't come up with anything I would do differently. Regardless, I am still indebted to them, as they did what we as a group of hikers could not.
 
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