Big Papi on the Juice??????

ComeBackMudPuddles · Aug 3, 2009

2knees said:
as is every title for every team from the the 1995 season through 2003, at the very least. All tainted. Because the sox hadnt won in 86 years it somehow makes it worse? Only a yankee fan could come up with that logic. the yankee run was fueled by roids and coke. You should be ashamed to call yourself a fan.

you're missing the point.....all i was saying is that the fact that the two titles are a total fraud makes the whole "red sox nation" orgy of self-congratulation following '04 look pretty pathetic in hindsight, that's all.

and, yes, other titles are tainted. sure. whatever. that's the steroid era.

mondeo · Aug 3, 2009

ComeBackMudPuddles said:
you're missing the point.....all i was saying is that the fact that the two titles are a total fraud makes the whole "red sox nation" orgy of self-congratulation following '04 look pretty pathetic in hindsight, that's all.

and, yes, other titles are tainted. sure. whatever. that's the steroid era.

Eh, overblown. The Yankees had the most players listed in the Mitchell Report. The playing field was still fairly level overall, and 2007 came after the start of random drug testing and 50 game suspensions for those that got caught. Not that the sport instantly became clean or is clean or will ever be clean, but the 2007 win at least is as legit as you can expect for the time being. You can't take away the Red Sox wins and just say whatever to the rest.

Overall the playing field was fairly level. The trick is individual accomplishments and the sport as a whole are tainted. Numbers evaluated against historical norms (re: home run records) and for hall of fame consideration are screwed up. Given the injuries and natural talent, Griffey is a fair bet to be clean. Thome, maybe, but I'd guess not. Thomas, I'd say clean. The other 7 players from the late 90s/00s in the 500 club have all been implicated. Would Clemens be #9 on the all-time list of wins with steroids? My guess is no.

2knees · Aug 4, 2009

ComeBackMudPuddles said:
you're missing the point.....all i was saying is that the fact that the two titles are a total fraud makes the whole "red sox nation" orgy of self-congratulation following '04 look pretty pathetic in hindsight, that's all.

ok, yes, the pink hat motherfuckers any true red sox fan worth his knowledge of Fred Lynn's career hates?

well yeah but who cares. I personally hate this b.s. I used to be able to go to a game at the last minute and get a seat in the bleachers for $10. The morons who've come out of the woodwork since Pedro got there make me sick. It used to be a right of passage to go to fenway or foxboro and be bombarded with f-bombs, pot and stale beer. Now its a downright chore to get 4 tickets under $250.

I get your point.

deadheadskier · Aug 4, 2009

mondeo said:
. Given the injuries and natural talent, Griffey is a fair bet to be clean.

I'm not quite so sure I agree with this. For certain players, especially skinnier guys, steroids is often listed as a cause for persistent nagging injuries by adding too much mass onto a body frame that can't support it. Nomar Garciappara is an example of this. People suspect McGuire's knee issues were resultant of this. Griffey had hamstring issues over and over and over.

deadheadskier · Aug 4, 2009

2knees said:
ok, yes, the pink hat motherfuckers any true red sox fan worth his knowledge of Fred Lynn's career hates?

well yeah but who cares. I personally hate this b.s. I used to be able to go to a game at the last minute and get a seat in the bleachers for $10. The morons who've come out of the woodwork since Pedro got there make me sick. It used to be a right of passage to go to fenway or foxboro and be bombarded with f-bombs, pot and stale beer. Now its a downright chore to get 4 tickets under $250.

I get your point.

:lol:

The bleachers in the 80s into the early 90s certainly weren't a 'family' atmosphere. I remember those days. And $10 was the most you paid. I recall $6-8 for bleacher seats.

mondeo · Aug 4, 2009

deadheadskier said:
I'm not quite so sure I agree with this. For certain players, especially skinnier guys, steroids is often listed as a cause for persistent nagging injuries by adding too much mass onto a body frame that can't support it. Nomar Garciappara is an example of this. People suspect McGuire's knee issues were resultant of this. Griffey had hamstring issues over and over and over.

Yeah, but he peaked naturally in his late 20s with numbers that weren't out of line with his early 20s and body type never changed (unlike McGuire.) One of the reasons people use steroids is to recover from injury faster, and that certainly never happened with Griffey.

deadheadskier · Aug 4, 2009

mondeo said:
Yeah, but he peaked naturally in his late 20s with numbers that weren't out of line with his early 20s and body type never changed (unlike McGuire.) One of the reasons people use steroids is to recover from injury faster, and that certainly never happened with Griffey.

.....Nomar's body type never really changed and had similar progression.

I'd love to believe Griffey is clean, but there isn't a single player in the game that I'm not skeptical of. Certainly some players more than others.

mondeo · Aug 4, 2009

deadheadskier said:
I'd love to believe Griffey is clean, but there isn't a single player in the game that I'm not skeptical of. Certainly some players more than others.

I get ya. That's one of the worst parts of the whole thing, is that even the clean players are guilty until proven innocent. I'm pretty sure Griffey didn't juice, but there's still that nagging doubt.

JimG. · Aug 4, 2009

Geoff said:
That is completely false.

You could buy Andro (androstenedione) and DHEA over the counter in a GNC back in 2003. Mark McGwire had both in his locker during his home run streak. That stuff wasn't banned by the FDA until February 2005.

The thing I don't quite understand is how only 104 players tested positive back then. Over the counter steroids were legal. MLB wasn't controlling it. If nothing else, they sped up your recovery time. I figure everybody in baseball was doing speed for 40 years and they were doing sterioids for the last 20.

Really?

The only reason GNC (the witch doctor store) could sell androstenedione OTC was because it is a precursor of anabolic steriods occuring naturally in the body. So technically it wasn't illegal then because it wasn't an anabolic steroid until it is introduced and further synthesized in the body. But make no mistake, it does become a powerful anabolic steroid in the body.

So this proves 2 things:

1) Not only do you have to ban the steroid itself but also any precursors that could become steroids in the body. That's why androstenedione is illegal now.

2) That Mark "I'll take the 5th" McGwire is a total idiot for having that bottle out for all to see during press conferences. That's what precipitated the process of discovery that continues today.

All this argument back and forth only makes me more ambivalent to baseball. Nobody seems to want to see the core issue...these guys cheated. Everyone wants to defend their favorite baseballer...look at the Griffey argument. I don't know about you, but it's clear to me he used steroids. Why did he suddenly stop hitting so many home runs? Because he was traded to Cincinnati? Why is he always injured now?

Because he stopped using.

This is the classic case of it'll be OK if you don't get caught crap. That's what all these players think anyway. They should be ashamed to make all that money and cheat at the same time. Disgusting!

mondeo · Aug 4, 2009

JimG. said:
Really?

The only reason GNC (the witch doctor store) could sell androstenedione OTC was because it is a precursor of anabolic steriods occuring naturally in the body. So technically it wasn't illegal then because it wasn't an anabolic steroid until it is introduced and further synthesized in the body. But make no mistake, it does become a powerful anabolic steroid in the body.

So this proves 2 things:

1) Not only do you have to ban the steroid itself but also any precursors that could become steroids in the body. That's why androstenedione is illegal now.

2) That Mark "I'll take the 5th" McGwire is a total idiot for having that bottle out for all to see during press conferences. That's what precipitated the process of discovery that continues today.

All this argument back and forth only makes me more ambivalent to baseball. Nobody seems to want to see the core issue...these guys cheated. Everyone wants to defend their favorite baseballer...look at the Griffey argument. I don't know about you, but it's clear to me he used steroids. Why did he suddenly stop hitting so many home runs? Because he was traded to Cincinnati? Why is he always injured now?

Because he stopped using.

This is the classic case of it'll be OK if you don't get caught crap. That's what all these players think anyway. They should be ashamed to make all that money and cheat at the same time. Disgusting!

So that's why he declined at the height of the steroid scandal, and became healthy again after it became a big deal? Yes there's going to be doubt, but let's look at the facts:

He's an amazing athlete. Not looking at numbers, but how he plays the game. Beautiful swing at the plate and outstanding athleticism in the field.

Stop hitting so many home runs? When? Let's see, moved to Cincinnati, with a less HR friendly park, and still hit 40 with OPS of .946. Then injured for a few seasons. Then 35 with OPS at .945 at the age of 35, after the start of drug testing. Hit 30 at 37. Not bad for a guy in his late 30s with a series of injury problems.

Potential steroid induced injuries from adding too much mass - never gained mass.

Started being injured after playing 158 then 161 then 160 games. That's a lot of time in center field.

Without all the other steroid controversy, nobody would be suspicious. This isn't Mark McGwire and his massive change in bulk. Not Roger Clemens going from awesome to mediocre back to awesome. Not Bonds transforming from a fast guy with mid 30 HRs per season into a slugger with 49 then 73. Some guys are just injury prone. It happens.

Obviously I can't be completely sure, but this one of those cases of guilty until innocent that I mentioned.

Mildcat · Aug 5, 2009

deadheadskier said:
.....Nomar's body type never really changed and had similar progression.

I'd love to believe Griffey is clean, but there isn't a single player in the game that I'm not skeptical of. Certainly some players more than others.

Jr's one of the few modern day superstars I would be shocked to find out he was on peds. His power and speed dropped off as he aged as it does with most mere mortals. Injuries are common for people that play the game as hard as does. Running all out on every play and smashing into walls takes it's toll. Call me naive but I honestly believe he was just a perfect combination of talent, athletic ability, skill, and work ethic.

ComeBackMudPuddles · Aug 5, 2009

Mildcat said:
Jr's one of the few modern day superstars I would be shocked to find out he was on peds. His power and speed dropped off as he aged as it does with most mere mortals. Injuries are common for people that play the game as hard as does. Running all out on every play and smashing into walls takes it's toll. Call me naive but I honestly believe he was just a perfect combination of talent, athletic ability, skill, and work ethic.

if there's one thing all these steroids revelations has taught me, it's to doubt everyone and anyone.

griffey? yeah, i think there's a solid chance he used. great success (numbers wise) followed by a total body break down? suspicious. plus, he had some pretty dramatic mood swings, especially in cinci.

i realize i'm a yankees fan, but, i'd be pretty shocked to learn that jeter took steroids. that would be pretty ground-shaking.

mondeo · Aug 5, 2009

ComeBackMudPuddles said:
if there's one thing all these steroids revelations has taught me, it's to doubt everyone and anyone.

griffey? yeah, i think there's a solid chance he used. great success (numbers wise) followed by a total body break down? suspicious. plus, he had some pretty dramatic mood swings, especially in cinci.

i realize i'm a yankees fan, but, i'd be pretty shocked to learn that jeter took steroids. that would be pretty ground-shaking.

One of the things that makes me think probably both Jeter and Griffey didn't use is the way they carry themselves. I'm no Yankees fan, but both guys are Tiger-like professionals. He may get angry, but anyone that's extremely competitive can get that way when they don't perform to their expectations - which happened in Cinci.

tjf67 · Aug 5, 2009

mondeo said:
Yeah, but he peaked naturally in his late 20s with numbers that weren't out of line with his early 20s and body type never changed (unlike McGuire.) One of the reasons people use steroids is to recover from injury faster, and that certainly never happened with Griffey.

I dont know whether you all are old enough but steroids bacame known to the masses in the ealry 80's. Heck I was a freshemen in college in 86 and I knew guys in the gym that were taking them. To think ballplayers were not taking thems is silly.

mondeo · Aug 5, 2009

tjf67 said:
I dont know whether you all are old enough but steroids bacame known to the masses in the ealry 80's. Heck I was a freshemen in college in 86 and I knew guys in the gym that were taking them. To think ballplayers were not taking thems is silly.

The point was that there was nothing unremarkable about the way his career progressed. No sudden dramatic changes in performance, and his injury problems in Cinci were all pretty much just a single recurring injury. Bonds, Sosa, and Palmeiro are all guys that were consistent 30s and into 40 HR/year hitters that transformed into high 40s and upwards in their mid 30s. Junior was a much more typical peak at around close to 30.

Just random chance here, given the last 100 years in baseball, you'd expect one of the top 5 HR hitters of all time in the last 20 years, 2 top 10, etc. Ruth, Aaron, Mays were all spectacular hitters without roids, and all reached 500 HRs within 100 days in age of Junior. He has great numbers and a few injuries. That's all the evidence anybody has against him, yet there's still a large amount of suspicion, with several people convinced he juiced. Guilty until proven innocent.

deadheadskier · Aug 5, 2009

mondeo said:
Guilty until proven innocent.

this is unfortunately the case and it sucks for anyone who has been clean.

I would really like to think Griffey is clean, but you just don't know. Yes, he's a pro's pro, was always good, etc, but you just don't know. The same was said about Palmiero. He might be the most consistent ball player in history in terms of production, his body size hardly changed at all throughout his entire career. Yet, he was a juicer.

JimG. · Aug 5, 2009

ComeBackMudPuddles said:
i realize i'm a yankees fan, but, i'd be pretty shocked to learn that jeter took steroids. that would be pretty ground-shaking.

Me too, but...

I guess I've become a total baseball cynic at this point. It would not shock me to find out he too used.

I know it's at best guilt by association, but look at some of the "superstar" steroid users he's been around like Clemens, Giambi, and A-Rod. I hope I'm wrong, but it would be hard for Jeter to resist the temptation to join in.

JimG. · Aug 5, 2009

deadheadskier said:
this is unfortunately the case and it sucks for anyone who has been clean.

I would really like to think Griffey is clean, but you just don't know. Yes, he's a pro's pro, was always good, etc, but you just don't know. The same was said about Palmiero. He might be the most consistent ball player in history in terms of production, his body size hardly changed at all throughout his entire career. Yet, he was a juicer.

Palmiero...heh. The finger wagger.

What a classic acting job he pulled during the congressional hearings. How did he ever escape perjury charges?

Big Papi on the Juice??????

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