So Long Tookie!

So long Tookie! Come Tuesday you'll be burning in hell. Nice try with the children's books. You say you changed, but the four people whose life you ended haven't changed. They're still dead.

I hope Governor Schwarzenegger put it to you this way. . .Hasta la vista baby!

WELL SAID!!!!!!

I am against the death penalty... Killing someone for revenge or any other reason except self defense is wrong..

My Christian upbringing also allows me to forgive people who repent and change their lives for the better...

I say let him live out his life and continue his positive work...

This thread comes perilously close to being a political thread.

I don't have strong opinions on this one. I read claims that he was rail-roaded and claims they caught him dead to rights. I can't claim to know what Gov. Arnold should do, but I certainly won't cheer his execution if that's the way it goes.

I'd have to meet him myself and do some major research to make an informed decision about him. Still, since only a very small percentage of murderers are ever executed, it's not like giving him life without possibility of parole is letting him get away with murder.
Is the good he's he done since his reform (which seemed to take place a number of years after he was sentenced) done enough good to justify paying to keep him incarcerated for all those years? Is the good he may do in the future enough to justify the effort and expense of keeping him locked up the rest of his life? Is the story of redemption powerful enough to justify the hurt it will cause to the relatives of his victims who seem to want to see him die?

pedxing said:

This thread comes perilously close to being a political thread.

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I would say it was. Are the mods asleep at the switch or do we have to start a GWB sucks rant to earn a lock?

LVNLARG said:

Are the mods asleep at the switch?

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No, thank you. :roll:

This is more of a morality debate than a political one. Let's however, take the focus on what Arnold might do, and keep it on the topic of capital punishment.

Obviously, there are strong ties to politics here, and subjects like this tend to evoke strong emotions. With that said, please keep it civil and be respectful of differing opinions.

Greg said:

LVNLARG said:

Are the mods asleep at the switch?

Click to expand...

No, thank you. :roll:

This is more of a morality debate than a political one. Let's however, take the focus on what Arnold might do, and keep it on the topic of capital punishment.

Obviously, there are strong ties to politics here, and subjects like this tend to evoke strong emotions. With that said, please keep it civil and be respectful of differing opinions.

Click to expand...

This thread is totally political...
I don't even want to get into the political ramifications of Arnolds descision...

This subject always gets ugly...
Your either really for ir it - or really against it...

No good can come from this thread... We might as well be disscussing abortion or the war..

dmc said:

Greg said:

LVNLARG said:

Are the mods asleep at the switch?

Click to expand...

No, thank you. :roll:

This is more of a morality debate than a political one. Let's however, take the focus on what Arnold might do, and keep it on the topic of capital punishment.

Obviously, there are strong ties to politics here, and subjects like this tend to evoke strong emotions. With that said, please keep it civil and be respectful of differing opinions.

Click to expand...

This thread is totally political...
I don't even want to get into the political ramifications of Arnolds descision...

This subject always gets ugly...
Your either really for ir it - or really against it...

No good can come from this thread... We might as well be disscussing abortion or the war..

Click to expand...

Ditto....that's why I've kept my big mouth shut on this one. Anyone here ever see the HBO docs Paradise lost and Paridise revisited? It really makes you think twice about capital punishment.

dmc said:

Greg said:

LVNLARG said:

Are the mods asleep at the switch?

Click to expand...

No, thank you. :roll:

This is more of a morality debate than a political one. Let's however, take the focus on what Arnold might do, and keep it on the topic of capital punishment.

Obviously, there are strong ties to politics here, and subjects like this tend to evoke strong emotions. With that said, please keep it civil and be respectful of differing opinions.

Click to expand...

This thread is totally political...
I don't even want to get into the political ramifications of Arnolds descision...

This subject always gets ugly...
Your either really for ir it - or really against it...

No good can come from this thread... We might as well be disscussing abortion or the war..

Click to expand...

Well, I agree that how the subject was presented was political, but if we can keep the Arnold aspect out, I don't have a problem with discussing capital punishment.

I have always been against capital punishment, but I am always suspicious of jailhouse conversions, especially this one. Tookie and the Crips are serious bad guys and the blood of lots of dead people is on their hands. I am always willing to listen if someone says they've learned their lesson, but the evidence would have to be overwhelming in this case. If he can somehow convincingly demonstrate the change in his ways, then life without parole could be warranted. But if Tookie is continuing to run the gang from his jail cell (as is alleged in the media), then he probably should get what the state of California allows by law.

And, if Tookie has to rely on The Governator's clemency, he's probably in big trouble.....

This actually brings up a bit of a moral quandry.
If you're in a gang and kill people, you go to death row. This rovides an incentive to not be in a gang and kill people.

However, if you change your ways and "repent", you still get executed, eliminatiing any incentive to change your ways, even creating a disincentive, reinforcing the desire to stay in a gang and continue killing people.

Of course, if he's granted clemency, then it says that if you can convince someone you've changed your ways, whether you have or not, you can get off. It also tells the victim's families that they don't matter all that much.

Truly a complicated issue. The question is, will Schwarzenegger's decision be based on his own moral and ethical thoughts, does he rely on the court's decision, or does he do whatever is most politicaly expedient? I think his decision will be informed by what the court says, with moral and ethical arguments available that fit the court's decision in the most politically expedient way.

(Edit to seperate Arnie politcal aspect- In the end, I think it's important that we have agreement, not on the moral right/wrong of capital punishment, but on who gets to make the decision. I think the courts are the best place to let the final decision rest, since they operate under the laws as passed by the people. If Ahnold follows the court, I think he'll be in the right-- everything else he says is political molllification, since he'd never be able to say that the courts should make the decision)

Before we all decide whether to keep him alive or not, let's invite the relatives of the folks he killed or had killed in cold blood to give us their opinion.

Regardless of what he is or pretends to be now, back then he was a cold blooded killer and he committed some really heinous acts.

Forgive and forget?

best place

I don't see how this is a political issue. For me, it's more about crime and punishment.

Williams is where he should be. To be honest I would prefer he just stay in prison for the rest of his life. I don't see the positive community value from his execution, just revenge for his victims and their families..

The man terrorized people for years while co-founding a crimial gang. He was also nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

He was once quoted as saying "never stuck around to see if his victims lived or died". He didn't care.

Im not a big fan of capital punishment. Many times it is used when there is too much grey area but when something is this cut and dry its ok by me.

Seriosuly, the man killed 4 people basically for the fun of it. Id doenst matter what he is doing now. here is his file.http://da.co.la.ca.us/pdf/swilliams.pdf It sounds pretty bad.

I also believe that there is no cure for a true sociopath. Its a psychological disease. The can be reformed or changed because its biological. Im not saying that he should be able to use that as an excuse. He still needs to be held accounted for.

Re: best place

ski_resort_observer said:

Williams is where he should be. To be honest I would prefer he just stay in prison for the rest of his life. I don't see the positive community value from his execution, just revenge for his victims and their families..

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Then you would prefer to pay for his upkeep than pay to kill him; I certainly understand that. I don't care for the death penalty either, but this guy is a case where it might be justified. He is a very bad man.

ski_resort_observer said:

He was also nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

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At the risk of offending Scandinavians, maybe the swedes would like to pay for his upkeep and we can send him there.

It costs more, in the end, to execute someone than it does to keep them locked up for life, what with all the appeals and such (you're guaranteed 3).

If Tookie has managed to keep one kid from joining a gang, then he is, in some small way, and in my eyes, at least, a little bit redeemed. Even if he's not really reformed. Don't want him anywhere near the street, though (unless there's an out-of-control bus on the way).

As I said - my Christian upbringing allows me to fogive people that have changed for the better..

But this is a political thread... Our Current Presidents state leads the US in executions... He's totally for it.. And thats a big reason I don't vote for people like him...

Here's a list of countries that execute and where we stand - nice company we keep.... George Bushs axis of evil countires right up there with the US...

#1 China 1,067 executions
#2 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 100 executions
#3 United States 68 executions
#4 Iran 66 executions
#5 Egypt 48 executions
#6 Belarus 33 executions
#7 Taiwan 32 executions
#8 Saudi Arabia 29 executions
#9 Singapore 28 executions
#10 Sierra Leone 24 executions
#11 Rwanda 24 executions
#12 Vietnam 18 executions
#13 Yemen 17 executions
#14 Afghanistan 10 executions

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_exe

#1

wow, we have a lot of work to do if we expect to be #1!

financially speaking, since the money is already spent on the appeals they might as well put him down. otherwise your paying for the expensive appeals process and the life in prison.

dmc said:

As I said - my Christian upbringing allows me to fogive people that have changed for the better..

But this is a political thread... Our Current Presidents state leads the US in executions... He's totally for it.. And thats a big reason I don't vote for people like him...

Here's a list of countries that execute and where we stand - nice company we keep.... George Bushs axis of evil countires right up there with the US...

#1 China 1,067 executions
#2 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 100 executions
#3 United States 68 executions
#4 Iran 66 executions
#5 Egypt 48 executions
#6 Belarus 33 executions
#7 Taiwan 32 executions
#8 Saudi Arabia 29 executions
#9 Singapore 28 executions
#10 Sierra Leone 24 executions
#11 Rwanda 24 executions
#12 Vietnam 18 executions
#13 Yemen 17 executions
#14 Afghanistan 10 executions

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_exe

Click to expand...

It is disgusting to see the US as #3 in that list, but it's from 1998 and it shows 0 executions for Iraq.

That said, the US should not be on this kind of list at all...