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2010 Golf

campgottagopee

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Great article----i find it interesting that Dustin asked for a ruling on 14 about if he was in a bunker or not, he wasn't so grounding and practice swings were allowed. The official also asked him if he needed anything be4 he hit that shot on 18, all he said was he needed the crowd moved. Obviuosly the confusion comes from him being so far off line----who the hell puts a bunker out there anyway---Pete Dye is a sick effer!!!

I'm sure there were rules infractions that weren't caught, BUT not knowingly---those guys don't cheat PERIOD.
 

tjf67

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Great article----i find it interesting that Dustin asked for a ruling on 14 about if he was in a bunker or not, he wasn't so grounding and practice swings were allowed. The official also asked him if he needed anything be4 he hit that shot on 18, all he said was he needed the crowd moved. Obviuosly the confusion comes from him being so far off line----who the hell puts a bunker out there anyway---Pete Dye is a sick effer!!!

I'm sure there were rules infractions that weren't caught, BUT not knowingly---those guys don't cheat PERIOD.

When you saw it live you could not see it was a bunker with all the people in it. Then they all wanted to stay close to get a good view. The caddie needs a kick in the ass. Stevo or Bones would have never missed it.

Golfers don't cheat intentionaly. To here it mentioned makes me wonder.... I called myself out for hitting my partners ball. No one but him and I knew. Cost us 64 dollars and I felt like an idiot but thems are the brreaks
 

drjeff

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I fail to see how grounding you club, in the way Johnson did it (without any swinging motion), could either improve his lie or allow him to test the surface in any valuable way. As I said earlier "I can see the logic behind a rule disallowing practice swings that make any kind of impact against the sand; it would give the player (arguably unfair) information about the density and moisture of the sand which he could use to judge his real stroke by."

In other words, I do not see why the rule couldn't be rewritten to say something like "A player whose ball has come to rest in a sand bunker may ground his club prior to and at address only if such grounding in no way effects his lie. If such grounding effects the player's lie, he will be assessed a two stroke penalty. Additionally, any swinging motion or grounding of the club which results in an impact being made with the sand is strictly prohibited and shall result in a two stroke penalty."

I do not see how a non-swinging grounding of the club creates any kind of significant advantage for the player. I am almost certain it would do nothing to improve most player's sand game. All it would do would be to reduce the draconian nature of golf's rules, many of which were established long ago for unknown reason.



So how would this work??????? My ball is on the amorphous edge of a bunker. There is some sand, and there is a bunch of grass growing out of it. There is absolutely no way to tell where the bunker ends and the rough begins. Can I ground my club? I'm going to play the ball as it lies either way, so I don't see how your answer addresses the issue. Playing a second ball doesn't really accomplish anything. To me, the decision has to be made before I play the first ball.

The problem s there will be many folks who will stretch the rule, if grounding was allowed. There would be that bunker with really soft sand in it where the "ethically shaky" guy playing a $2 nassau with his friends, and is already 2 down, would manage to ground his club in a ay that would clear the sand out behind the ball, essentially teeing the ball up, after all, a bunker is intended to be a slight penalty for a shot not struck as well as it could have been.

As for the amorphous edge of a bunker scenario. When in doubt, assume you're in, since if you play the ball like it's IN the bunker, but in reality it wasn't in the bunker, you DON'T incur a penalty stroke, whereas if you assume it's out of the bunker, but is actually in the bunker and play that ball like it's out of the bunker, you've just incurred a penalty stroke.
 

midd

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if there's a .01% chance a ball is lying in a bunker almost every other tour pro errs on the side of caution and doesn't ground their club. faldo even made specific mention of this, asking why johnson even risked it.

johnson and his caddy screwed up royally. 100% on them. his initial response wasn't that he wasn't in a bunker, it was that he didn't think he grounded the club. He knew 100% that he grounded the club.

as for the advantage, I can see plenty of advantage gained by simply grounding the club in a bunker. displaces the sand directly behind the ball and creates a tee-like scenario. absolutely gives you more ball to hit cleanly.

also, as for "missed" penalties unseen by the tv cameras, the number of potential opportunities is mitigated by two factors. 1) as campgottagopee mentioned, these guys don't cheat and 2) johnson hits the ball a mile and was a mile offline with that shot. he and bubba were two of the few in the field capable of bringing those bunkers into play.
 

jaywbigred

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The problem s there will be many folks who will stretch the rule, if grounding was allowed. There would be that bunker with really soft sand in it where the "ethically shaky" guy playing a $2 nassau with his friends, and is already 2 down, would manage to ground his club in a ay that would clear the sand out behind the ball, essentially teeing the ball up, after all, a bunker is intended to be a slight penalty for a shot not struck as well as it could have been.
I really disagree with this. Golf is a game predicated on self-scoring and honesty. There are myriad rules that require honesty and can be "Stretched" by a less than honest player: as I draw an imaginary line from OB stake to OB stake, is my ball in or out? I'm taking a drop, is this spot really no closer to the hole? Is this really 2 club lengths? I'm in a lateral hazard, is this really where my ball crossed into the hazard? And so on. I think this rule would just be in that same category. If you improve your lie by grounding your club, it's a penalty. Otherwise, ground away (NO SWINGING). Take the draconian strictness out of it. If the golf course construction ethos is going to be embodied by course design that includes an average of 56 bunkers per hole (1000 bunkers, 18 holes), the rules need to reflect the reality of the evolution of the sport, imo.

I would also add that in a greenside bunker, creating a "tee" like effect in the bunker wouldn't be much of an advantage given the physics of a bunker shot require there to be a nice patch of sand behind the ball. Creating a tee would cause you to clip the ball first which is usually a disaster scenario, and thus I am not convinced it would really be an advantage.

Maybe it would help in a fairway bunker, I will have to try it during practice. I am not sure though.

As for the amorphous edge of a bunker scenario. When in doubt, assume you're in, since if you play the ball like it's IN the bunker, but in reality it wasn't in the bunker, you DON'T incur a penalty stroke, whereas if you assume it's out of the bunker, but is actually in the bunker and play that ball like it's out of the bunker, you've just incurred a penalty stroke.
Agreed, if any kind of stakes were involved, that's how you'd have to play it. Unless they changed the pointless rule.

Pete Dye is a sick effer!!!
Hahaha! Agreed!

I'm sure there were rules infractions that weren't caught, BUT not knowingly---those guys don't cheat PERIOD.
I don't see the distinction. I don't think DJ was cheating either, I think it was an honest mistake by him and his caddie. The fact that other players may have grounded their clubs unknowingly and gotten away with it does not make it somehow fair. DJ was subject to much closer scrutiny than most other players in the field, and that is really a shame, bc fairness of this variety is exactly what golf is supposed to be about.

We were talking about this in the office, and if each group has a rules official with them, it really should be his decision alone on each shot. If he misses the call, like he did here, then that should be the end of it. You can't have what amounts to selective video replay. Totally unfair.

also, as for "missed" penalties unseen by the tv cameras, the number of potential opportunities is mitigated by two factors. 1) as campgottagopee mentioned, these guys don't cheat and 2) johnson hits the ball a mile and was a mile offline with that shot. he and bubba were two of the few in the field capable of bringing those bunkers into play.

I am not sure how 1) mitigates anything, as I mentioned above. Just because they don't cheat doesn't mean they don't mistakingly break the rules. This is not hockey. The rules are complicated and often open to interpretation. They are often self enforced. DJ was the victim of his own success, as his every move was being followed. Many, many other golfers were not, and its an almost certainty that the rules were not enforced equitably upon the whole field. In a major professional sport, that seems very unfair.

2) Wow - that is such a shitty argument, and I keep hearing hints of it and it really ruffles my feathers. This is an argument I deal with constantly from people I play with. That DJ or Bubba or any other player who hits it far somehow deserves the penalty for being off line is ridiculous. He hit the ball far, and he hit it offline, yes. Did he hit it out of bounds? No. Did he hit it in the drink or in some other hazard? No. The ball was 100% in play. He hit it in a bunker, and he was the victim of a draconian rule that, imo, doesn't make sense given the way the course is designed. I don't see how his distance has ANYTHING to do with it. Could have happened to any player in the field given the number of bunkers. They were EVERYWHERE. Long, short, medium. When people make these kind of arguments, my only guess is they are jealous or angry at how far someone like DJ can hit it.

Anyway, I am not convinced. To me, DJ is an honest player, he was not cheating, and he was the victim of his own success bc that success down the stretch of the back nine put his every shot on TV, and the result was the inequitable application of a draconian rule that serves very little purpose, if any. I agree it was the correct call, given the way the rule is written, but that doesn't mean it is a good rule or that it was applied in a fair way.
 

midd

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easy there big hitter, must be quite the cross to bear on the course.

I was simply noting that the entire field wasn't capable of bringing those trampled bunkers into play. Thus, the likelihood of a misunderstanding taking place is slim. There weren't thousands of opportunities for cheating/misunderstanding like you mentioned above. The great number of bunkers were inside the ropes, or not so far outside as to be in such crappy shape as the one Johnson hit out of on 18.

I'm also of the belief that these guys ALWAYS err on the side of caution.

if he was being perfectly honest, why was his initial response that he didn't think he grounded the club? His honest answer would have been, "of course I did, I wasn't hitting from a bunker."
 

tjf67

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We were talking about this in the office, and if each group has a rules official with them, it really should be his decision alone on each shot. If he misses the call, like he did here, then that should be the end of it. You can't have what amounts to selective video replay. Totally unfair.



The rules official did not miss the call. He pointed out the error. They are like well behaved children at a dinner party, they dont speak unless spoken to. If he were asked he would have pointed out that it was a trap.
 

drjeff

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The bottomline is this was a result of a local rule thta the PGA Officials put in place prior to the championship. They're perfectly fine to do so, and apparently they had it well marked (the local rule). The reality is though, and I think that anyone whose been to a PGA Tour event can attest to this, is that the ground "outside" the ropes gets trashed, both interms of being torn up and covered with trash. And had DJ's ball come to rest say inside of an empty plastic cup, then as the local rule was written, he would have been playing his 3rd out of that cup.

Playing out of a gallery area is fine, but at Whistling Straits, with all 900+ bunkers that Pete Dye put there, I strongly feel that the PGA Rules officials botched that local rule for playing a non maintained bunker outside the gallery ropes as a bunker and not a waste area. Even having seen the replaying a bunch of times, the reality is the sand in that "trap" looked to have a similar consistency after being trampled all week, as that of a dirt cart path, which as we all know is something that you're entitled to take free relief withing 2 club lengths, no closer to the hole, from if you so choose. Does a PGA tour pro need that kind of relief a "bunker" like that, IMHO, no. But atleast for the fairness of the championship designate those non maintained bunkers as a waste area, so the next time it happens, we won't have to see a replay of someone hitting out of a plastic cup, or off a hamburger wrapper, etc.

And my strong hunch is that when the PGA returns there in 5 years for the 2015 PGA Championship and then again in 2020 for the Ryder Cup, that it will be a local rule that bunkers outside the gallery ropes are to be played as a waste area.
 

jaywbigred

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easy there big hitter, must be quite the cross to bear on the course.
The sarcasm is not appreciated. It IS incredibly frustrating. Other golfers are constantly picking up my ball, moving my ball, etc.. playing partners who I am not that familiar with do not offer any help in looking for wayward shots, even though I constantly help them find their's (something I always do, bc I know how frustrating it is to lose a ball in bounds). Other playing partners, groups behind us, and even starters repeatedly urge you to hit when you know the group in front of you is not out of range yet. It really effects the way the game is played and how enjoyable it is.

I was simply noting that the entire field wasn't capable of bringing those trampled bunkers into play. Thus, the likelihood of a misunderstanding taking place is slim.
He was attempting a 233 yard 4 iron on a 500 yard par 4. That means his tee shot went approximately 267 yards, give or take a few yards for the angle. That is not an elite distance. Granted, his shot was wide of the target, but if you look at any of the overhead shots of the spot where he hit, you can see that there are similar spots 40 yards in front of and behind where he was. His predicament had nothing to do with his length, and everything to do with his inaccuracy.

There weren't thousands of opportunities for cheating/misunderstanding like you mentioned above. The great number of bunkers were inside the ropes, or not so far outside as to be in such crappy shape as the one Johnson hit out of on 18.
I think this reasoning is incorrect; given there are over 1000 bunkers, the great number of them cannot be "inside the ropes". They fill almost all the space between every hole. Further, the course was designed to include 2 distinct types of bunkers, 1 being the classic, green or fairway side bunker we all know and love, and the other being the more modern "waste bunker" which are always unraked, regardless of whether there are galleries present or not. The general rule for waste bunkers is that you are allowed to ground your club, but the local rules adopted for the tournament stated otherwise, which is why DJ got in trouble, and why I think there were probably multiple other violations of this course-specific rule. Many other golfers are on record as stating they didn't know the rule and didn't bother to read the sheet (their fault to be sure), which again would lead to the likelihood that this rule was violated elsewhere.



if he was being perfectly honest, why was his initial response that he didn't think he grounded the club? His honest answer would have been, "of course I did, I wasn't hitting from a bunker."
You have a point here. But I think it's easily explained. He is on the 18th hole of a major and being asked in front of tens of thousands if he "grounded his club in a bunker"; everyone knows the rule, so a knee jerk response of "grounded my club in a bunker? I don't think so" would make sense, especially for someone that didn't realize they were even in a bunker (understandably, imo).

The rules official did not miss the call. He pointed out the error. They are like well behaved children at a dinner party, they dont speak unless spoken to. If he were asked he would have pointed out that it was a trap.

The rules official with the group, David Price, did not see him ground the club. That is what I meant when I said he "missed the call." The rules violation was caught by another rules official watching on TV who then radioed to Price. To me, that is selective video review, and unfair.

"Price said he went up to Johnson as he was preparing to hit his second shot and asked him if he needed anything. Johnson replied that he needed the crowd moved to the right, so Price went to make sure that was being done and then waited on the fairway. He never saw Johnson ground his club."

You are correct that Johnson (or his caddie) could have asked, and hindsight says they should have, but how would you know to ask if you hadn't read the rules sheet? There mistake was not reading the rules sheet (and a big one, obviously). Everything else that happened is completely understandable, imo.
 

drjeff

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He was attempting a 233 yard 4 iron on a 500 yard par 4. That means his tee shot went approximately 267 yards, give or take a few yards for the angle. That is not an elite distance. Granted, his shot was wide of the target, but if you look at any of the overhead shots of the spot where he hit, you can see that there are similar spots 40 yards in front of and behind where he was. His predicament had nothing to do with his length, and everything to do with his inaccuracy.

Not to give you a hard time, but that 267ish poke was UPHILL and into a 15mph or so wind. Dustin Johnson is known on tour as one of the longer hitters out there.
 

jaywbigred

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Not to give you a hard time, but that 267ish poke was UPHILL and into a 15mph or so wind. Dustin Johnson is known on tour as one of the longer hitters out there.

Agreed, he is in the top 5 for driving distance I am sure. The point was that he was in a spot that a lot of other guys, not just the elite hitters, could reach. I mean, even the middle of the pack driving distance guys can bomb it. Those guys are so good.
 

jaywbigred

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My hot streak continues. Played 9 holes on Friday after work and I actually lost my swing. Still scrambled around for a 39. Went to the range afterwards, and couldn't quite find the swing again. Played Saturday morning and it was basically more of the same for the first 15 holes (shot 42 on the front), then the swing came back (16th hole = second longest drive of my life!!!!!!) and wound up with a 79. Managed to break 80 because I had 0 blow up holes. Nothing bigger than a 5. Weather was nice so we decided to play an extra 9, but a couple holes in I got pretty tired of walking and feet started to hurt, and concentration level started to sag. Made some dumb course management decisions and shot 44 which I can live with paired with the 39 from Friday for an 83.

Sunday morning went to hit balls to try to figure out where my swing was, and how to get it back to Wednesday's form, and actually didn't make any progress. Then, 15 minutes later on the first tee, like magic, the swing came back. Don't understand how or why, but I destroyed my drive on the 475 yard par 5, and had 120 yards in from there. 3 putt par :/ Things progressed from there, wound up with a personal best 76 on 2 double bogeys, 3 bogeys, and 3 birdies.

How are everyone's local courses? We have one down here (county course that I played on Friday and Sunday) that is very, very burnt out and dry. I think they have stopped watering the fairways altogether. Greens are in good shape, but it doesn't look pretty. Meanwhile, 6 miles away at another county course (same county, too), the course is in very good shape considering the weather. Fairways still green. Courses are similarly styled, pretty open, some trees but not too many. We couldn't figure it out.

More of the hot streak.

Played Friday after work as the sun was setting. Got 11 holes in, was 4 par over when it go too dark to continue.

Played Saturday morning, shot 78 (par 71) on a triple bogey, a double bogey, 4 bogeys, and 2 birdies. I think my mental game is starting to develop/adjust for playing better. I "felt" like I didn't play that well. I hit 8 GIRs (3 front, 5 back), but I also got up and down from an impossible spot on the 1st hole (had 187 to the green on a par 5, pulled a 7 iron left and it landed hole high--on the cart path--and kicked really high and far passed the green, into the stream behind the green. Took my drop, hit an impossible pitch through the tiniest holes in the trees, then made about a 35 footer for par), and from less than impossible spots on 7, 8 and 9 (2 of those putts were over 7-9 foot range, so the putter was helping a lot). I tripled the 4th hole - yanked the drive left, but everyone in the group thought it was safe. Well, with the dry ground and the fact that apparently I hit in the only gap in the 15 foot tall bushes that line the course driveway, apparently I trickled onto the road. There was my ball, lying 1 foot on the pavement, and its staked OB, even though the course is on both sides of the driveway. I guess they stake it OB to prevent people from play across the road, which makes sense I guess. I couldn't go back and rehit, group behind us was approaching the tee, so I went and dropped a ball in the right rough, being honest about where I would have hit a re-teed drive. Hit the 4th one on the green and then promptly 3 putted, giving me a 7. Since the last revision, I am down to a 9.2 index, which I believe on this course, with a slope of 116, produces a course handicap of 9. Thus, if I am not mistaken, the max I can post for handicap purposes is a double bogey...so I guess I have to post a 77????? Didn't realize that til just now. Luckily, I haven't posted yet. Hmmm.

Anyway, rest of the round was ho hum. Didn't hit a single par 3 green, which is inexcusable, but every tee shot set up to be in between clubs, and somehow I managed to pick the wrong one each time. Doubled #15, which is a touch hole, from the middle of the fairway with 130 yds in. Inexcusable as well. When I got to the par 5 18th, I knew I needed a 5 to break 80, demolished my drive, had 181 in, which is in between clubs for me. Decided short was the better miss, hit 8 iron, just landed on the front of the green, spun off into the rough, chipped to 9 inches for the birdie. Nice way to finish!

Hoping to keep this up! Regardless of how I score, I find that golf is more enjoyable for me, when I hit the sweet spot with my drives, and make a few putts. Luckily, those things tend to help scoring, and then the only other thing I have to do is stay disciplined and count those GIRs.
 

campgottagopee

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I don't see the distinction. I don't think DJ was cheating either, I think it was an honest mistake by him and his caddie. The fact that other players may have grounded their clubs unknowingly and gotten away with it does not make it somehow fair. DJ was subject to much closer scrutiny than most other players in the field, and that is really a shame, bc fairness of this variety is exactly what golf is supposed to be about.




.

Price one pays for leading a major tourney
 

campgottagopee

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The sarcasm is not appreciated. It IS incredibly frustrating. Other golfers are constantly picking up my ball, moving my ball, etc.. playing partners who I am not that familiar with do not offer any help in looking for wayward shots, even though I constantly help them find their's (something I always do, bc I know how frustrating it is to lose a ball in bounds). Other playing partners, groups behind us, and even starters repeatedly urge you to hit when you know the group in front of you is not out of range yet. It really effects the way the game is played and how enjoyable it is.
.

You need to practice the Lee Trevino "No Hunt" rule....you no hunt for my ball, I no hunt for yours....makes it simple :cool:
 

jaywbigred

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You need to practice the Lee Trevino "No Hunt" rule....you no hunt for my ball, I no hunt for yours....makes it simple :cool:

Haha. Well, I just feel bad for a lot of people I play with. They don't watch where there ball goes. They don't wait for it to stop moving. Esp now, with hard, dry ground, a lot of people just watch it until the time at which it would normally stop rolling. But I keep my eye on it and watch it til it actually stops rolling. Then, when they can't find it, I usually can walk right to it and show them. They say "Oh, how'd it get way over here!??" And rather than say "this is where it ended up after the it kept rolling for another 10 seconds after you stopped watching," I just sigh and smile and shrug.
 

jaywbigred

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After a 41-48(???) - 89 at Mt. Snow last weekend, a midweek 43 (had to submit a 42 though), a Saturday 82 and a Sunday 85, I thought maybe I was coming back to reality, score wise. Then yesterday I shot 76 from the tips (not super long, ~6500) at one of our local courses, w 9 GIRs. Go figure.
 
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