What's up with Maple Valley?

mister moose · Jun 26, 2018

What I said was: "Many of the best beers in VT are in farther out places than this"

I didn't say brewpubs, although the entire list has very successful on site sales (or in Lawson's case, in town sales) For those that don't know, Hill Farmstead is beyond the middle of nowhere and is rated the best beer in the world. Foley Bros is small but superb, and sells all they make. And if you haven't heard of Lawson's you don't drink IPA. Those are cult favorites I could think of that are in small towns. Lots of course in Burlington/Waterbury/Stowe/Morrisville.

Long Trail is a hybrid, a mega brewery (By VT standards) on a busy road in a small town near a big resort and VT's most quaint town. Not comparable.

We just had a new brewpub open up in Killington this year. Decent beer, but yawnworthy. Remains to be seen how they evolve in their second season.

Glenn · Jun 27, 2018

Steering this back to Rt 30 (see what I did there?)...

South of Maple Valley, there was a craft distiller; Saxtons River Distiller. They were/are located on 30 just north of the 91 Bridge on 30. They've done well and I believe have moved or are moving to a new larger location. I want to say on Rt 9?

Spot on regarding Whetstone. They've really turned that around from when it was the Riverbend Cafe a few years back. I think they were just voted one of the best brewpubs in VT?

There's not a lot of places to eat or grab a beer between Bratt and Stratton/Bromley/Manchester on Rt 30. Rick's Tavern in Newfane has been there for years and is for sale. The Newfane Cafe and Creamery burnt down a few years ago. However, they're rebuilding a new restaurant there currently. North of that, not much to speak of.

Again, I think the traffic on Rt 30 will help. If they opt to serve food, that could really help get people in the door. As mentioned mentioned before, my wife and I have hiked Maple Valley a few times over the years. The lodge is in really good shape considering. I'm sure they could get things setup in there with minimal renovating.

mrvpilgrim · Jun 27, 2018

The local Folks Smokehouse in Waitsfield has an onsite small batch brew operation. "Cousins Brewing"
Certainly not on the scale of Lawsons but they are making some good beers

cdskier · Jun 27, 2018

mrvpilgrim said:
The local Folks Smokehouse in Waitsfield has an onsite small batch brew operation. "Cousins Brewing"
Certainly not on the scale of Lawsons but they are making some good beers

I thought Cousins was a bit inconsistent. A couple I had I really enjoyed, while others I didn't care that much for (even though they were styles I typically enjoy).

Lawson's is almost bordering on too big with the pretty wide distribution of their 2 main beers. Even at a restaurant in the Boston area they had Lawson's on the beer list recently when I was up there for work. What fun is that if it is so easy to find/get? :grin: I am hoping the new brewery allows them to have more of some of their other beers available though.

mister moose · Jun 27, 2018

cdskier said:
Lawson's is almost bordering on too big with the pretty wide distribution of their 2 main beers. Even at a restaurant in the Boston area they had Lawson's on the beer list recently when I was up there for work.

Lawsons has evolved to two different entities: The beers brewed in Stratford CT and the beers brewed by Sean in Warren.

Two Roads in Stratford has been contract brewing the Sip (and Super Session) that you see in cans and the draft that gets distributed to southern New England. It has become so prolific now that there are stacks of cases out for sale on the floor at reduced prices. And I'm sad to say the taste has suffered with the increased production. There are many VT IPAs much better now, at least to my taste. The bottled Lawsons for sale in Waitsfield are the real deal.

BBCo is making great strides, and Foam is a new strong brewer. Sad to say the Alchemist is slipping as well in the big new facility.

If it was easy, everyone would do it. Making top shelf craft beer is an art.

Keane Aures &Co would be well advised to look to VT for brewing talent, not so much from CT.

cdskier · Jun 27, 2018

mister moose said:
Lawsons has evolved to two different entities: The beers brewed in Stratford CT and the beers brewed by Sean in Warren.

Two Roads in Stratford has been contract brewing the Sip (and Super Session) that you see in cans and the draft that gets distributed to southern New England. It has become so prolific now that there are stacks of cases out for sale on the floor at reduced prices. And I'm sad to say the taste has suffered with the increased production. There are many VT IPAs much better now, at least to my taste. The bottled Lawsons for sale in Waitsfield are the real deal.

The bottled ones are the ones I have far more interest in than either Sip or Super Session. That's what I'm hoping the new brewery makes a little easier to get. As for Sip and Super Session...I was a bit surprised so many people didn't know they contract those out to be made now. Was just having a conversation about that with one of my co-workers who happens to love Sip when we were up in Boston 2 weeks ago and he had no idea they were really brewed in CT. I haven't noticed much difference in Sip now personally, but I'm also not an IPA-aficionado like it seems almost everyone else is these days.

tumbler · Jun 27, 2018

I wish them all the luck and hope it succeeds. 725k is a lot for the initial investment of raw space. I hope they have deep pockets.

Smellytele · Jun 27, 2018

tumbler said:
I wish them all the luck and hope it succeeds. 725k is a lot for the initial investment of raw space. I hope they have deep pockets.

Smuttynose in NH just learned a lesson in expanding too much too fast.

shwilly · Jun 27, 2018

mister moose said:
Two Roads in Stratford has been contract brewing the Sip (and Super Session) that you see in cans and the draft that gets distributed to southern New England. It has become so prolific now that there are stacks of cases out for sale on the floor at reduced prices. And I'm sad to say the taste has suffered with the increased production. There are many VT IPAs much better now, at least to my taste. The bottled Lawsons for sale in Waitsfield are the real deal.

You know, I'd thought that the canned Sip was pretty good, but unremarkable among all the IPAs on the market now. It would be interesting to try the canned and "real" versions side by side some time.

EPB · Jun 27, 2018

Smellytele said:
Smuttynose in NH just learned a lesson in expanding too much too fast.

Apparently, they made a huge bet on a bottling facility just as craft beer in cans became in vogue. It blew up in their face.

Totally fair point on the pub from the last page, btw.

drjeff · Jun 27, 2018

shwilly said:
You know, I'd thought that the canned Sip was pretty good, but unremarkable among all the IPAs on the market now. It would be interesting to try the canned and "real" versions side by side some time.

To my own palate at least, it's not that Sip has fallen off flavor wise since I first had it I believe 3, maybe 4 years ago, it's just that so many others have come along since then, and pushed the definition of what a modern "New England Style IPA/DIPA" to places far beyond the crisp, tart citrus balanced nicely with some resiny bite that Sip and Heady before it essentially created the style with. Is where today's NEIPA is at a good thing or a bad thing? That's a personal preference for sure. The bottom line is, we're pretty darn fortunate to have such a wealth of GREAT beers available in New England these days! :beer:

And I apologize in advance to my good friend Glenn, for likely having him to once again pivot this conversation back to actually 100% Maple Valley/Route 30 related items! The first round (OK more like 3 or 4 rounds when we get together ;-) ) are on me! :beer:

VTKilarney · Jun 27, 2018

I was speaking to a commercial lender not long ago who said that they are getting REALLY nervous lending to brewers. He believes that the market has become saturated and that there may even be some contraction.

drjeff · Jun 27, 2018

VTKilarney said:
I was speaking to a commercial lender not long ago who said that they are getting REALLY nervous lending to brewers. He believes that the market has become saturated and that there may even be some contraction.

Agree 100%!! My hunch, as a fully self acknowledged beer geek, is that states like VT, where the "immediate vicinity" saturation, even in the greater Burlington area, isn't overwhelming as of yet, and the overall state beer hype factor is large, will do OK, with some slowing of the openings over the next couple of years, and even some closings, but nothing too big. Larger, more saturated areas, such as major and even mid-sized cities, where there isn't quite as many breweries as say Dunkin Donuts yet (even if it feels like it in some locations) will be the hardest hit between the larger start up costs and the increased competition in the immediate area.

That being said, all 1 brewery needs these days, is just to get 1 beer to get the social beer media hype train going, and they should be able to parlay that into enough capital to hold them through until they hopefully can get another beer with enough hype to both draw customers in AND more importantly have enough customer popularity over time to warrant it being regularly brewed. That is the tougher thing, avoiding the "sophomore slump"....

deadheadskier · Jun 28, 2018

Yes, there is the social media unicorn beer phenomenon, but I think that's largely becoming a dying fad. There will likely never be another Heady Topper type scenario again. Though Sip and some of the Treehouse beers had some nice runs.

What I'm seeing locally on the NH Seacoast that does seem sustainable is more the neighborhood brewery type places. We've got lots of good local breweries rarely heard of outside of the immediate area that seem to all be doing pretty well. They offer a comfortable place to relax with some suds, distribute mostly just locally via draft at bars, not much retail. These guys probably aren't going to get uber wealthy, but they make a decent living and have fun doing it.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

Smellytele · Jun 28, 2018

deadheadskier said:
Yes, there is the social media unicorn beer phenomenon, but I think that's largely becoming a dying fad. There will likely never be another Heady Topper type scenario again. Though Sip and some of the Treehouse beers had some nice runs.

What I'm seeing locally on the NH Seacoast that does seem sustainable is more the neighborhood brewery type places. We've got lots of good local breweries rarely heard of outside of the immediate area that seem to all be doing pretty well. They offer a comfortable place to relax with some suds, distribute mostly just locally via draft at bars, not much retail. These guys probably aren't going to get uber wealthy, but they make a decent living and have fun doing it.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

Agree - I like the Liar's Bench in Portsmouth. In South Central NH I love Abel Ebenezer. Both are like that - grab a pint or two while there and a growler/4pack to go.

AdironRider · Jun 28, 2018

VTKilarney said:
I was speaking to a commercial lender not long ago who said that they are getting REALLY nervous lending to brewers. He believes that the market has become saturated and that there may even be some contraction.

I mentioned this a couple pages back. There is no way all these breweries are making money. Appearances of doing well, at least my theory, are more tied to cheap credit than actual success.

I haven't seen it, but isn't there a brewery spending three million+ in Littleton on a buildout? That is a lot of coin to spend in a community that might be on the rise, but still only has a small population averaging over 20% below nationwide household income average and over 33% below NH average household income. There is no way they support the debt on that building, let alone operations there. Thats like anywhere from 25-40k in debt service monthly depending on the terms.

Shifting back to Maple Valley, he's going to need 1-2 million to build this out, in a more rural community than Littleton. Good luck.

thetrailboss · Jun 28, 2018

AdironRider said:
I mentioned this a couple pages back. There is no way all these breweries are making money. Appearances of doing well, at least my theory, are more tied to cheap credit than actual success.

I haven't seen it, but isn't there a brewery spending three million+ in Littleton on a buildout? That is a lot of coin to spend in a community that might be on the rise, but still only has a small population averaging over 20% below nationwide household income average and over 33% below NH average household income. There is no way they support the debt on that building, let alone operations there. Thats like anywhere from 25-40k in debt service monthly depending on the terms.

Shifting back to Maple Valley, he's going to need 1-2 million to build this out, in a more rural community than Littleton. Good luck.

You're talking about Schilling's. It is pretty cool and is very busy and popular. I doubt that they are going to go under. They have some relatively deep pockets supporting them.

http://schillingbeer.com/

AdironRider · Jun 28, 2018

Deep pockets only support losses for so long. Looks like a local ski co here is going under because their well healed backer pulled out, they were doing fine and exploring expansion prior to that.

They are a phone call away from being up shit creek. I mean I hope they don't, but that is some serious coin for a local brewery in that neck of the woods. I'm just kinda in tune with small business financing currently as I'm going through it myself and those numbers would scare me. I obviously don't see their books either.

Does anyone know the numbers on overall beer consumption by year? I'm interested to see if there has been an increase or just a shift from Bud and Miller to craft?

Glenn · Jun 28, 2018

drjeff said:
To my own palate at least, it's not that Sip has fallen off flavor wise since I first had it I believe 3, maybe 4 years ago, it's just that so many others have come along since then, and pushed the definition of what a modern "New England Style IPA/DIPA" to places far beyond the crisp, tart citrus balanced nicely with some resiny bite that Sip and Heady before it essentially created the style with. Is where today's NEIPA is at a good thing or a bad thing? That's a personal preference for sure. The bottom line is, we're pretty darn fortunate to have such a wealth of GREAT beers available in New England these days! :beer:

And I apologize in advance to my good friend Glenn, for likely having him to once again pivot this conversation back to actually 100% Maple Valley/Route 30 related items! The first round (OK more like 3 or 4 rounds when we get together ;-) ) are on me! :beer:

LOL! No worries at all! This has turned into a rather interesting conversation with some good points about the future of the industry.

thetrailboss · Jun 28, 2018

AdironRider said:
Deep pockets only support losses for so long. Looks like a local ski co here is going under because their well healed backer pulled out, they were doing fine and exploring expansion prior to that.

They are a phone call away from being up shit creek. I mean I hope they don't, but that is some serious coin for a local brewery in that neck of the woods. I'm just kinda in tune with small business financing currently as I'm going through it myself and those numbers would scare me. I obviously don't see their books either.

So when was the last time you were at Schilling?

I agree that there may be oversaturation, but Schilling is very well established, speaking from someone who follows them and visits them everytime I am up there.

What's up with Maple Valley?

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