Japan Earthquake and Tsunami

from_the_NEK · Mar 15, 2011

billski said:
Note to Greg:

Alpine Zone - Your place for the latest news on skiing, boarding, hiking, gear, lodging and nuclear physics.

I like it! I expect that to be the rallying cry at the AZ gathering at Sugarloaf :beer:

ctenidae · Mar 15, 2011

from_the_NEK said:
Radioactive decay continues to produce heat after the fission process is stopped by the control rods. It takes several months to completely cool off to where it won't melt down.

My question is that if the fuel rods do melt and the material falls to the floor of the reactor core, away from the control rods, can the fission process resume?

To the first point: Yes, that's what I implied. Godzilla was a joke. Mothra, maybe not so much.

To the second point: I believe it can potentially ramp back up, depending on what happens to the rods- melted in, maybe not as fast. PuckIt probably knows better.

ctenidae · Mar 15, 2011

Puck it said:
Obviously, you have some engineering or scientific background. It could be Ghidra!!!

Biology major/physics minor for a period.

I forgot about Ghidra. That would be, as we say in the business, sub-optimal. Rodan's on vacation this week, so it could get ugly...

Puck it · Mar 15, 2011

from_the_NEK said:
Radioactive decay continues to produce heat after the fission process is stopped by the control rods. It takes several months to completely cool off to where it won't melt down.

My question is that if the fuel rods do melt and the material falls to the floor of the reactor core, away from the control rods, can the fission process resume?

Yes that is the issue with the rods melting. Control rods can no longer be inserted into the material. This is why the fuel rods are pellets stacked on top of each other to make the rods. The control rods are between and control the fission by accepting the emitted particle from the radioatcive material in the rods. The boron rods are actuallt B10 not the abundant B11 isotope. B10 is a neutron asborber. The larger mass of radioactive material con not be controlled and go "critical", that is meltdown thru vessel.

from_the_NEK · Mar 15, 2011

ctenidae said:
To the first point: Yes, that's what I implied. Godzilla was a joke. Mothra, maybe not so much.

To the second point: I believe it can potentially ramp back up, depending on what happens to the rods- melted in, maybe not as fast. PuckIt probably knows better.

If fission is not occuring, what's creating the heat? Godzilla? Maybe Mothra?

But just so it is clear for everybody, fission and decay are two somewhat separate forms of energy release.

Fission is the physical process of splitting atoms via neutron bombardment.

Decay is the process of unstable atoms releasing radioactive energy particles as they degrade into lighter elements. Different materials have different rates of decay.

Edit: That advanced physics class in high school is starting to come back to me. Nuclear Physics is the one part of that class I did well in

Puck it · Mar 15, 2011

ctenidae said:
Biology major/physics minor for a period.

I forgot about Ghidra. That would be, as we say in the business, sub-optimal. Rodan's on vacation this week, so it could get ugly...

Strange combo though

For me
BS - Physics, Math Minor, Concentration in Geology
MS - Physics
Phd - Solid State Physics

Puck it · Mar 15, 2011

from_the_NEK said:
But just so it is clear for everybody, fission and decay are two somewhat separate forms of energy release.

Fission is the physical process of splitting atoms via neutron bombardment.

Decay is the process of unstable atoms releasing radioactive energy particles as they degrade into lighter elements. Different materials have different rates of decay.

Edit: That advanced physics class in high school is starting to come back to me. Nuclear Physics is the one part of that class I did well in

Yes and no. Both occur in the reactor. Things are naturally decaying in the reactor but the fission is what is producing the heat for the reactor to generate the steam. Make sense, since you know something unlike Mororlesswax

Puck it · Mar 15, 2011

wa-loaf said:
You are claiming some sort of fact without backing it up with either a good explanation or pointing to an example. You are a terrible debater.

There is no on/off switch on a nuclear reactor, they only can slow the reaction by inserting the control rods and cooling the whole thing. If any of those go wrong the whole thing heats up again. Fully shutting it down take's a very long time.

BTW, what haven't we agreed on?

deadheadskier · Mar 15, 2011

ctenidae said:
Scramming the reactors drops the control rods all the way, which stops the majority of the fission reaction immediately. But not all. What's still going on generates heat, which needs to be cooled.

Just two minutes ago some dude on NPR said it takes a couple of years for all of the heat from the rods to cool in the pool of water. That is why spent rods are not taken to storage facilities right away.

from_the_NEK · Mar 15, 2011

Puck it said:
Yes that is the issue with the rods melting. Control rods can no longer be inserted into the material. This is why the fuel rods are pellets stacked on top of each other to make the rods. The control rods are between and control the fission by accepting the emitted particle from the radioatcive material in the rods. The boron rods are actuallt B10 not the abundant B11 isotope. B10 is a neutron asborber. The larger mass of radioactive material con not be controlled and go "critical", that is meltdown thru vessel.

Thanks!

I wonder how long the uncontrolled reaction could be expected to last? Probably depends on last time the fuel rods were replaced?

ctenidae · Mar 15, 2011

Puck it said:
Strange combo though

Especially since I ended up, 8 years later, with a BSBA in Finance, and then an MBA.
I'm a triple threat- science, numbers, and bullshit. I can do it all.

wa-loaf · Mar 15, 2011

Puck it said:
BTW, what haven't we agreed on?

Nothing in this thread. Some old politics stuff. :beer:

billski · Mar 15, 2011

Children,

Can we get back to nuclear reactors and behave like nerdy scientists again?

If you must insult each other, there's a perfect forum that goes by the name TGR. Let's get back to our "dull and boring" old selves.

from_the_NEK · Mar 15, 2011

billski said:
Children,

Can we get back to nuclear reactors and behave like nerdy scientists again?

If you must insult each other, there's a perfect forum that goes by the name TGR. Let's get back to our "dull and boring" old selves.

Noted, but I think since the "wax" guy left the discussion, we have already returned to civil discourse. :beer:

Warp Daddy · Mar 15, 2011

ctenidae said:
Especially since I ended up, 8 years later, with a BSBA in Finance, and then an MBA.
I'm a triple threat- science, numbers, and bullshit. I can do it all.

C-10-------------------------- POTD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! nice to see a little bit o humor again

Puck it · Mar 15, 2011

wa-loaf said:
Nothing in this thread. Some old politics stuff. :beer:

Oh yeah. Remember, I a morally liberally and fiscally conservative.

Puck it · Mar 15, 2011

Warp Daddy said:
C-10-------------------------- POTD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! nice to see a little bit o humor again

One of the guys that I hate. You can not spend anymore money, we are over budget. Then, I say "Can igo home for the rest of the quarter?"

Morwax · Mar 15, 2011

from_the_NEK said:
Noted, but I think since the "wax" guy left the discussion, we have already returned to civil discourse. :beer:

Just listening now:beer:

Morwax · Mar 15, 2011

Puck it · Mar 15, 2011

Morwax said:

Referring to yourself I see.

What was the offense to stainless steel and vessel?

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