Hey Camp ... Subi Impreza 2012

JimG. · Aug 1, 2011

andrec10 said:
How do you like it? I am getting a 2011 Outback Premium CVT with AWP in a few weeks. Did you get it at Mid-Hudson or Ruges?

Got it at mid-Hudson.

I love the new car...deliberately got the 2.5 4 cyl and 6-speed to get good mileage. Didn't even realize that the PZEV technology is standard on Subarus now.

Picked the car up last Thursday and I've been driving it all over the place and I'm still at 1/3 tank from the dealership fill up. Close to 400 miles on the first tank and still counting.

AdironRider · Aug 1, 2011

Unless you drive a 1/4 of the way across the country ... IN THE WRONG DIRECTION!!!

That John Denver is full of shit.

riverc0il · Aug 7, 2011

Just signed on the line for a 2012 JSW TDI w/DSG, Sunroof, and Protection Package.

Turns out 2011s are really not as scarce as the first dealership would have had me believe. I found two other 2011s in New England (limited to my color preferences, I am sure there are more) including one with sunroof and one with nav. On the one with Nav, I got an offer of about $1000 less than the original dealership that I originally wrote about trying to take me. Still didn't bite at that very good offer as I didn't want to pay extra for the nav. Almost went one for another 2011'er but the dealer was being flaky with trade in values and I didn't care for the run around. Dealership today were straight shooters. Good deal for both parties and I get the exact spec and color I want fresh off the truck with barely more than a mile on it. Gotta wait a month though. Would have been cheaper for a 2011 but not enough to justify the instant deprecation of 11 vs 12 and not getting my top color preference. I'm very happy with how things played out.

New vs Used: we've always had used before. I've been lucky, S not so much. New is a little less of a gamble than used. Both are a gamble but at least with new, you know that you are only gambling on the factory rather than factory plus previous ownership.

But that really isn't worth the premium. New is a massive premium and you need to justify it in terms of wanting to pay more for the novelty. New only pays off if you trade up in 2.5 years and keeping upping (continuous payment but never complete depreciation) or driving it into the ground. I'll do one of the two.

o3jeff · Aug 8, 2011

Congrats, can't wait to to see your review after you've put some miles on it.

deadheadskier · Aug 8, 2011

congrats Steve.

Curious

Why the DSG instead of the Manual?

Edd · Aug 8, 2011

Sick ride. Congrats and good luck with it.

o3jeff · Aug 8, 2011

I really don't see why a lot of you insist on a manual trans, I have a 5 speed sequential shift in the Acura and got to really play with it some on some twisty back roads the other weekend and the paddle shifts were quick and precise and then the plus was sitting in traffic on 95 I didn't have to worry about shifting and clutching thru a half hour of traffic.

I can see it being helpful on underpowered cars, but any car with some power I don't see a need if it has a good sequential/DSG/etc. auto.

deadheadskier · Aug 8, 2011

just personal preference

The only car with paddle shifters I've driven is my mother's Lexus IS 350. I still prefer the standard manual of our Mazda3 over it.

I had thought I had read rivercoil preferring manual transmissions, but I could be mistaken.

Geoff · Aug 8, 2011

deadheadskier said:
just personal preference

The only car with paddle shifters I've driven is my mother's Lexus IS 350. I still prefer the standard manual of our Mazda3 over it.

I had thought I had read rivercoil preferring manual transmissions, but I could be mistaken.

I have DSG on my VW GTI. I had owned manual transmission cars exclusively from 1974 to 1998 and my first 2001 GTI had a 6-speed. DSG is way faster than I can ever shift. That's why the F1 cars have it.

I also used to have cars that didn't have: Air conditioning, power windows, remote power locks, power sunroof, power rear tailgate/hatch release, power assisted disc brakes, power steering, Xenon headlights, LED turn signal indicators in the side mirrors, tilt/telescopic steering wheel, heated seats, heated mirrors, turbocharger...

I supposed I could go back to my 1972 Ford Maverick with a 3-on-the-tree manual transmission, drum brakes, manual everything, and mighty 87 horsepower 200" inline 6 engine but why would I want to?

deadheadskier · Aug 8, 2011

Did I say it had anything to do with shifting speed or performance? No. I said it had to do with personal preference. I find the standard manual transmission on our Mazda3 more fun to drive than I do driving the Lexus that I've driven with the paddle shifters.

Fact is that 95% of the market prefers a slushbox automatic over a manual as it is.

There are people out there that would prefer to drive a 68 Mustang over 2012 Porche 911. Technology isn't embraced the same by everyone.

riverc0il · Aug 8, 2011

deadheadskier said:
Why the DSG instead of the Manual?

I don't drive stick. My room mate in college showed me once. I couldn't be bothered. The DSG is pretty sick. Better than the manual mode on the Mazda3 and Elantra I tried.

Nick · Aug 8, 2011

I hate, hate, hate automatic transmission. I will never buy one. That said I could see a paddle shifter being ok on the right vehicle, but that is the exception.

JimG. · Aug 8, 2011

I test drove a 2011 Outback with the paddle shifters. On top of the fact that I think Subaru made a BIG mistake making the Outback less car and more SUV, I didn't like the paddles. To me, that's a version of manual shifting for dummies. Sorry, just my opinion.

Sure it's quicker since there is no clutch. So, it's not a manual tranny. Now if my car was an F1 machine, I might think differently.

All I know is that after 10 years of driving automatics to cater to my wife's occasional need to drive my car, I am one smiling and happy driver using my left foot again and changing gears with a real shifter.

o3jeff · Aug 18, 2011

Chevy getting in the diesel car game.

http://www.torquenews.com/106/gm-shooting-50mpg-chevy-cruze-diesel

Glenn · Aug 19, 2011

o3jeff said:
Chevy getting in the diesel car game.

http://www.torquenews.com/106/gm-shooting-50mpg-chevy-cruze-diesel

I think it's cool that Chevy is putting a diesel in one of their smaller cars. It'll be interesting to see how that shakes out with mileage. The Cruze Eco already gets about 40mpg with the gasoline engine.

ctenidae · Aug 19, 2011

Interesting- I just ran quick numbers to compare a gas to a diesel engine- which is "better" depends entirely on why you're buying it- if it's for environmental purposes or to reduce dependence on foreign oil, then gasoline is better. If it's to save money, then diesel is better. So, you have to ask yourself, are you a selfish terrorist-supporting anti-nature greedy bastard? If so, buy a diesel. Are you a peace, love, and happiness tree hugging new age hipster doofus? If so, buy a gas engine.

Based on the EPA's calcs of 19.4 lbs of CO2/gal of gas and 22.2 lbs/gal for diesel, and average monthly prices since January 2009 of midgrade reformulated retail gasoline of $3.02 and US No 2 Ultra Low Sulfur retail diesel of $2.98 (both #s from the EIA), I calculated the table below- read as "If you have a diesel engine that gets 30 mpg, you produce the same CO2 as a 26.2 mpg gas engine, or the same cost as a 20.26 mpg engine."
MPG Equivalents
Diesel Gas CO2 Gas Cost
20 17.5 20.26
30 26.2 30.4
40 35 40.5
50 43.7 50.67
60 52.8 60.8

Also, based on the Texas Oil and Gas Association's review of average refinery outputs, you get 19.5 gallons of gas and 9.2 gallons of diesel (which also includes heating oil) from a barrel of oil. So not only are you diesel drivers killing the planet and supporting terrorists, you're also using up Grandma's heating oil in the winter. I hope you're happy when she suffocates on smog. At least she won't be killed by an IED, and she won't freeze again this winter.

/portions of this posting represent editorial comments not intended to reflect the actual positions of the author. All rights reserved. All math errors are the result of a public school education and a lack of parental support early in life.

Geoff · Aug 19, 2011

ctenidae said:
Interesting- I just ran quick numbers to compare a gas to a diesel engine- which is "better" depends entirely on why you're buying it- if it's for environmental purposes or to reduce dependence on foreign oil, then gasoline is better. If it's to save money, then diesel is better. So, you have to ask yourself, are you a selfish terrorist-supporting anti-nature greedy bastard? If so, buy a diesel. Are you a peace, love, and happiness tree hugging new age hipster doofus? If so, buy a gas engine.

Based on the EPA's calcs of 19.4 lbs of CO2/gal of gas and 22.2 lbs/gal for diesel, and average monthly prices since January 2009 of midgrade reformulated retail gasoline of $3.02 and US No 2 Ultra Low Sulfur retail diesel of $2.98 (both #s from the EIA), I calculated the table below- read as "If you have a diesel engine that gets 30 mpg, you produce the same CO2 as a 26.2 mpg gas engine, or the same cost as a 20.26 mpg engine."
MPG Equivalents
Diesel Gas CO2 Gas Cost
20 17.5 20.26
30 26.2 30.4
40 35 40.5
50 43.7 50.67
60 52.8 60.8

Also, based on the Texas Oil and Gas Association's review of average refinery outputs, you get 19.5 gallons of gas and 9.2 gallons of diesel (which also includes heating oil) from a barrel of oil. So not only are you diesel drivers killing the planet and supporting terrorists, you're also using up Grandma's heating oil in the winter. I hope you're happy when she suffocates on smog. At least she won't be killed by an IED, and she won't freeze again this winter.

/portions of this posting represent editorial comments not intended to reflect the actual positions of the author. All rights reserved. All math errors are the result of a public school education and a lack of parental support early in life.

Your numbers are inappropriate. Diesel fuel contains 30% more energy than gasoline. More or less, you get 30% better MPG with diesel than gasoline. The polution numbers and consumption numbers you care about need to be measured in units per mile, not units per gallon. If you drive a mile on diesel, you produce less CO2 than driving a mile in the same car with a gasoline engine.

If most cars were diesel and we converted all our homes from home heating oil to natural gas (where we have near-infinite domestic supply), we'd import far less oil.

ctenidae · Aug 19, 2011

Geoff said:
Your numbers are inappropriate. Diesel fuel contains 30% more energy than gasoline. More or less, you get 30% better MPG with diesel than gasoline. The polution numbers and consumption numbers you care about need to be measured in units per mile, not units per gallon. If you drive a mile on diesel, you produce less CO2 than driving a mile in the same car with a gasoline engine.

If most cars were diesel and we converted all our homes from home heating oil to natural gas (where we have near-infinite domestic supply), we'd import far less oil.

You're wrong. If you have a 50 MPG gas engine and a 50 MPG diesel engine, you will produce 0.444 pounds of CO2 per mile with the diesel engine, and 0.388 pounds per mile with the gas engine. The diesel engine produces more CO2 per mile than an equivalently rated gas engine. Diesel produces 14% more CO2 per gallon burned than gas (not to mention particulates).

It is true that a diesel engine produces more power (or at least torque) than an equivalently sized gas engine, but if you're trying to decide between two cars with equivalent MPG ratings and you're interested in reducing your carbon footprint, the gas engine appears to be the way to go.

Geoff · Aug 19, 2011

ctenidae said:
You're wrong. If you have a 50 MPG gas engine and a 50 MPG diesel engine, you will produce 0.444 pounds of CO2 per mile with the diesel engine, and 0.388 pounds per mile with the gas engine. The diesel engine produces more CO2 per mile than an equivalently rated gas engine. Diesel produces 14% more CO2 per gallon burned than gas (not to mention particulates).

It is true that a diesel engine produces more power (or at least torque) than an equivalently sized gas engine, but if you're trying to decide between two cars with equivalent MPG ratings and you're interested in reducing your carbon footprint, the gas engine appears to be the way to go.

Please explain how you can put a 50 mpg gasoline engine in the same car that sees 50 mpg with a diesel engine.

ctenidae · Aug 19, 2011

Geoff said:
Please explain how you can put a 50 mpg gasoline engine in the same car that sees 50 mpg with a diesel engine.

You can have two similar cars with the same mileage but different engines- go to the EPA's website and compare for yourself- http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byMPG.htm

A 34 MPG Passat with a diesel engine produces 0.652 pounds of CO2/mile, while a 33 MPG Elantra with a gas engine produces 0.588 pounds per mile. The 33 MPG gas powered Elantra is better from a CO2 standpoint.

Hey Camp ... Subi Impreza 2012

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