Cannon Mountain...thoughts

St. Bear · Apr 29, 2011

deadheadskier said:
I guess I'd like to see the true numbers over the past 5 years. Your contact says Cannon is a money pit. Sikskier says it's been profitable.

I've always been emphatically against the lease as a 'skier'. The deals at Cannon for state residents are far better than those at Sunapee.

However, I guess I can't make a true informed opinion without seeing the balance sheets.

It could be something as simple as timeframe, as riverc0il said. Maybe it was profitable this year and last, but lost money previously that offsets that.

Puck it · Apr 29, 2011

St. Bear said:
It could be something as simple as timeframe, as riverc0il said. Maybe it was profitable this year and last, but lost money previously that offsets that.

If I remember right, it has been profitable for the last three if not four. The last four years have been decent snow years though.

Cannonball · Apr 29, 2011

St. Bear said:
I think most of you are thinking too much like skiiers.

Isn't that the point? This isn't the Alpine Zone Real Estate, Business Development, and State Finances Forum.

Puck it · Apr 29, 2011

Cannonball said:
Isn't that the point? This isn't the Alpine Zone Real Estate, Business Development, and State Finances Forum.

I would like to see how the Mittersill real estate prices have changed with the new lift running.

Angus · Apr 29, 2011

what's coverage look like at the bottom thinking about hiking and skiing early sunday AM

thetrailboss · Apr 29, 2011

I think that Cannon is rivaling Killington when it comes to the number of long passionate threads! Yeah, nobody loves Cannon...let's get rid of it! :lol:

Puck it · Apr 29, 2011

thetrailboss said:
I think that Cannon is rivaling Killington when it comes to the number of long passionate threads! Yeah, nobody loves Cannon...let's get rid of it! :lol:

It sucks. Go to Loon. Better terrian. And closer.

SIKSKIER · Apr 29, 2011

I just don't see how attractive Cannon would be to lease financially.In its few profitable years of late,a lot of that was a direct result of favorable weather along with better management.I believe Sunapee pays $600,000 to lease plus a % of sales?.Based on that,I would think Cannon would be in the neighborhood of 1 million.What potential return would remain after these significant increases in costs to the operater?There is zero potential for real estate.The only way I see the numbers making sense are with a large increase in skier visits.I guess ultimately that is why I am selfishly against leasing.

deadheadskier · Apr 29, 2011

Without increasing the bed base at Cannon, I'm not sure what they could do to increase their skier visits much. I wonder how many more people skied Cannon this year because of Mittersill.

Angus · Apr 29, 2011

Along with the real estate issue, think of all the family centric ski areas you have to drive by on 93 before you even get to Cannon. Plus Cannon has that reputation for being a tough mountain to ski and by opening Mittersill they've done nothing to dis-spell that notion btw: weather can be touch and go in the notch for the average skier, I just think it would be a tough go for a private operator to expand visits significantly without massive advertising outlays. I agree the new management has done a tremendous job of improving the quality of snow, etc.

bobbutts · Apr 29, 2011

Loon and Cannon are very close to each other, share many of the same lodging properties and at least from my unscientific skier counts when visiting both regularly, Loon has far more skiers/visitors (all paying more) vs Cannon.

Better at Loon:
Lifts, grooming, snowmaking, parks, lodging, intermediate terrain, easier drive in bad weather, able to expand

Better at Cannon:
expert/natural terrain, natural snow, price, history/vibe, views

I guess the question to me is how can they grab some more of Loon's visits.

Cannonball · Apr 29, 2011

bobbutts said:
Loon and Cannon are very close to each other, share many of the same lodging properties and at least from my unscientific skier counts when visiting both regularly, Loon has far more skiers/visitors (all paying more) vs Cannon.

Better at Loon:
Lifts, grooming, snowmaking, parks, lodging, intermediate terrain, easier drive in bad weather, able to expand

Better at Cannon:
expert/natural terrain, natural snow, price, history/vibe, views

I guess the question to me is how can they grab some more of Loon's visits.

Over the holidays I had an interesting conversation with my cousin. He and his family own a condo at Loon and go nowhere else. I am, of course, true-blue Cannon. We were having a candid conversation about the merits of each. I said I didn't like the crowds at Loon...he said "but it's like a party everyone knows everyone, it's fun." He said Cannon was too hard for beginners....I told him all about Tuckerbrook. We went back and forth until he finally made the statement that summed it all up for me and made me realize why Cannon will never draw the typical Loon skier. With a straight face he said "Yeah well, I guess if you like being outside and enjoying the trails and nature and all that stuff then Cannon might be a good place. But that's not what we're looking for at Loon."

I'm not criticizing him, or anyone, for holding a view like that. But it's such a disparity in terms of desires that I don't know how Cannon would try to tap that demographic.

thetrailboss · Apr 29, 2011

Cannonball said:
Over the holidays I had an interesting conversation with my cousin. He and his family own a condo at Loon and go nowhere else. I am, of course, true-blue Cannon. We were having a candid conversation about the merits of each. I said I didn't like the crowds at Loon...he said "but it's like a party everyone knows everyone, it's fun." He said Cannon was too hard for beginners....I told him all about Tuckerbrook. We went back and forth until he finally made the statement that summed it all up for me and made me realize why Cannon will never draw the typical Loon skier. With a straight face he said "Yeah well, I guess if you like being outside and enjoying the trails and nature and all that stuff then Cannon might be a good place. But that's not what we're looking for at Loon."

I'm not criticizing him, or anyone, for holding a view like that. But it's such a disparity in terms of desires that I don't know how Cannon would try to tap that demographic.

I don't think that Cannon will EVER be that kind of party mountain. It is the State Park. That said, many folks over the past few years seem to be craving the "real" experience that places like Cannon, Saddleback, and Burke still offer.

Puck it · Apr 29, 2011

Cannonball said:
Over the holidays I had an interesting conversation with my cousin. He and his family own a condo at Loon and go nowhere else. I am, of course, true-blue Cannon. We were having a candid conversation about the merits of each. I said I didn't like the crowds at Loon...he said "but it's like a party everyone knows everyone, it's fun." He said Cannon was too hard for beginners....I told him all about Tuckerbrook. We went back and forth until he finally made the statement that summed it all up for me and made me realize why Cannon will never draw the typical Loon skier. With a straight face he said "Yeah well, I guess if you like being outside and enjoying the trails and nature and all that stuff then Cannon might be a good place. But that's not what we're looking for at Loon."

I'm not criticizing him, or anyone, for holding a view like that. But it's such a disparity in terms of desires that I don't know how Cannon would try to tap that demographic.

Just like the "Loon"atic that was worried about getting core shots in his skis at Mittersill on Super Bowl Sunday. My buddy and I both lifted a ski up and showed him 3 or 4 fresh core shots. We told him he should stay at Loon.

Angus · Apr 29, 2011

I hadn't skied at Loon in 30+ years until earlier this month - the day before, I spent an outstanding day at Wildcat and then we - the family - decided to give Loon a shot b/c they'd never been and it would give us a jump start on the commute home. It ended up being a bad day to ski - it never warmed up enough even with brilliant sun to soften the trails up. Icy, too many people, groomed flat, didn't like trail layout, etc. Worse day in memory.

We were sitting down in the ski lodge eating lunch when this guy came in and plopped down at the table next to us and announced to his family, "This is the best day of skiing ever." My 14 year old looked up at me from across the table and in a dead pan, quiet voice said, "Must be skiing a different mountain than we are." Long story, but I realized - this guy and I were probably about the same age and similar demographic - he and I were looking for an entirely different recreating, entertainment experience.

btw: my son did go over to the new area- south peak - and said that was fun and I did enjoy the east basin lift terrain - essentially all I skied even though it was icy.

threecy · Apr 29, 2011

SIKSKIER said:
I just don't see how attractive Cannon would be to lease financially.In its few profitable years of late,a lot of that was a direct result of favorable weather along with better management.

Peak Resorts paid $5M to essentially lease Wildcat from the USFS with no real estate potential.

Angus said:
what's coverage look like at the bottom thinking about hiking and skiing early sunday AM

On Sunday, the snow making trails were well covered top to bottom. Profile was still a few feet deep, pretty much wall to wall. Mittersill looked pretty bare.

riverc0il · Apr 29, 2011

ski_resort_observer said:
If they voted to go for a private lease, I wonder if the Muellers will be interested. Personally, I don't see how someone could make any money unless you expand the real estate at the bottom of the Mitt and seemlessly connect the two ski hills. That's going to take a bunch of capital up front. Is nearby Loon or WV profitable? Is there some financial benefits to leasing from the state of NH vs normal private ownership?

This is a good observation. Muellers are already feeling slapped with the Sunapee deal (or lack thereof). Personally, I am glad they got slapped. The whole thing seemed suspect to me. But would they be interested in taking on another NH state park with even more restrictions and even less chance of a real estate pot of gold at the end of the road? Doubtful. Any other potential leaser might look at what happened to the Muellers and be concerned.

Mittersill is the only private landing connecting to the ski area/state park. I don't know what the status of the hotel and resort is. Maybe sikskier can comment on how that setup works and if there is any possibility of a buy out. There are a lot of owners, I have a hard time believing anything other than the hotel proper could be flipped. Mittersill can't expand it's boundaries so there really isn't any other potential for anything near the slopes for real estate.

threecy · Apr 29, 2011

riverc0il said:
This is a good observation. Muellers are already feeling slapped with the Sunapee deal (or lack thereof). Personally, I am glad they got slapped. The whole thing seemed suspect to me. But would they be interested in taking on another NH state park with even more restrictions and even less chance of a real estate pot of gold at the end of the road?

I don't think the Muellers were given a fair chance at their plans. New Hampshire's loss.

In regard to them taking on another operation, I think they showed their hand when they acquired Crested Butte (which I believe came to fruition when they were denied access to their privately held property at Sunapee). They don't spend much time out here anymore relatively from what I've heard through the grapevine.

AdironRider · Apr 29, 2011

For icing on the cake, the Muellers and Crested Butte got burned recently on their expansion plans as well in similar fashion to Sunapee. Wanted to expand their intermediate and green terrain but the Forest Service said no dice after a bunch of local opposition. I actually feel bad for them as I dont think either development was that bad.

ski_resort_observer · Apr 29, 2011

Keep in mind that soon after Sunapee's expansion was off the table, the Muellers sold Okemo and the Butte to CNL, they are now the contracted operators. Like Boyne manages the Loaf and SR for CNL

Cannon Mountain...thoughts

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