Cannon Mountain...thoughts

deadheadskier · May 1, 2011

threecy said:
Really. I am a NH resident/taxpayer. How do I take advantage of this "greatly reduced price" without taking a day off work?

not everyone works M-F

Only reason why I don't take advantage of the reduced pricing for Cannon is that my job requires 3 weeks notice for a day off. So, I can't play hooky for mid week pow days.

Only reason I don't get a pass to Cannon is I spend 6 hours a day in my car for work. When the weekends arrive, I really don't want a long commute to skiing. #1 reason I switched from Ragged the past couple years to Gunstock for next year.

Just because 'I' can't take advantage of the NH resident discounts doesn't mean I don't think it's a GREAT thing for those who can. Look at the NH resident benefits at Sunapee in comparison. They SUCK. $40 Sunday afternoon ticket is it (up from $32 two years ago). Skiing is a very expensive sport and NH is a low income state. I think it's great that the state offers affordable options to get people on the snow at Cannon.

I really like Cannon and would ski there often if they had an affordable weekend product. Not that their walk up rate is that steep, but I typically find vouchers to other mountains for $40 or less. It's probably a good thing for their bottom line that Cannon doesn't offer weekend deals. As a taxpayer, I'm okay with that.

AdironRider · May 1, 2011

deadheadskier said:
not everyone works M-F

Only reason why I don't take advantage of the reduced pricing for Cannon is that my job requires 3 weeks notice for a day off. So, I can't play hooky for mid week pow days.

Only reason I don't get a pass to Cannon is I spend 6 hours a day in my car for work. When the weekends arrive, I really don't want a long commute to skiing. #1 reason I switched from Ragged the past couple years to Gunstock for next year.

Just because 'I' can't take advantage of the NH resident discounts doesn't mean I don't think it's a GREAT thing for those who can. Look at the NH resident benefits at Sunapee in comparison. They SUCK. $40 Sunday afternoon ticket is it (up from $32 two years ago). Skiing is a very expensive sport and NH is a low income state. I think it's great that the state offers affordable options to get people on the snow at Cannon.

I really like Cannon and would ski there often if they had an affordable weekend product. Not that their walk up rate is that steep, but I typically find vouchers to other mountains for $40 or less. It's probably a good thing for their bottom line that Cannon doesn't offer weekend deals. As a taxpayer, I'm okay with that.

Threecy just has beef with Cannon. The NH resident deals extend to season passes which he could take advantage of as well, regardless of his work schedule.

deadheadskier · May 1, 2011

I don't think threecy's primary beef is with Cannon per se. It's more the bloated state gov't in a time of economic uncertainty

Angus · May 1, 2011

hiked up and skied down today. profile to spookie, a little bit of walking to paulie's extension to Avalanche (with a little a few side steps to cross a bare spot) all the way to the bottom

talked to a couple of locals who said the warm weather, rain and wind fried the place this week. real natural snow started at the top of the peabody quad. hiked upper canyon which had 5'+ of snow in places but was pretty unskiable due to streams in middle and then cut over to profile - snow was 2+' in woods. a local said the mountain would be unskiable next weekend. I hiked up Paulie's - god, I need to get in shape!

I realized I'd only gotten to canyon once this year - pretty sure it was the first day of the season between XMAS and New Years.

threecy · May 1, 2011

deadheadskier said:
not everyone works M-F

Would you say that most NH taxpayers have Wednesday off? I'd argue that most NH taxpayers get Saturdays, Sundays, and NYSE holidays off - none of which have a NH resident discount.

AdironRider said:
The NH resident deals extend to season passes which he could take advantage of as well, regardless of his work schedule.

Full, Unrestricted 2011-2012 Season Pass:
Cannon NH Resident "Discount": $546
Wildcat+Attitash+Crotched: $599

Is that "big mountain skiing at a greatly reduced price to NH residents?"

riverc0il · May 1, 2011

threecy said:
Full, Unrestricted 2011-2012 Season Pass:
Cannon NH Resident "Discount": $546
Wildcat+Attitash+Crotched: $599

Is that "big mountain skiing at a greatly reduced price to NH residents?"

$546 is an incredible deal for any major mountain. I had no idea Peak Resorts was offering that type of deal, but before that deal was offered, Cannon definitely was the best value in NH for a resident. And honestly? Cannon > Wildcat+Attitash+Crotched regardless of the price. Let's be realistic though, compare NH Resident pass to WV, Loon, BW and Boyne in ME and pretty much every single resort in VT. You can pick your argument against the lack of discounting on the weekend (I would submit that Cannon is not really a "Value" any more, resident or not, for weekend day tickets). But arguing that $546 for a major ski area season pass is not a phenomenal deal is kinda whacked.

threecy · May 1, 2011

riverc0il said:
And honestly? Cannon > Wildcat+Attitash+Crotched regardless of the price.

What if we end up with a classic New England bad snow year? We're certainly due.

riverc0il said:
But arguing that $546 for a major ski area season pass is not a phenomenal deal is kinda whacked.

You'll note my comments are in regard to the comparison. It's a catch-22 - if state-run Cannon doesn't offer a deep discount, one can argue the operation is not of value to taxpayers; if state-run Cannon does offer a deep discount, one can argue they're using tax dollars to unfairly compete against privately owned and operated ski areas.

Regardless of that, a mandate can be put into the lease agreement requiring a certain % or $ discount.

Due to the fiscal crisis, Cannon is closer to being leased today than perhaps ever in its history.

Cannonball · May 1, 2011

threecy said:
Due to the fiscal crisis, Cannon is closer to being leased today than perhaps ever in its history.

Why not lease out the Flume as well...It'd be a hell of a water park. But somehow I don't think the NH (or Federal) financial crisis will be solved by any amount of public land leasing.

deadheadskier · May 1, 2011

threecy said:
Would you say that most NH taxpayers have Wednesday off? I'd argue that most NH taxpayers get Saturdays, Sundays, and NYSE holidays off - none of which have a NH resident discount.

Full, Unrestricted 2011-2012 Season Pass:
Cannon NH Resident "Discount": $546
Wildcat+Attitash+Crotched: $599

Is that "big mountain skiing at a greatly reduced price to NH residents?"

There are plenty of service industry workers who have mid week days off. Pretty much EVERY single person who works in a restaurant in the state. Same goes for retail. Do I think it represents the majority? No and I also didn't suggest that.

The vast majority of the members of this site, take last minute days off for Powder days. I can't. Apparently you can't either. Doesn't mean it's not a good deal for them.

Out of State pass: $729, In State, is $546. That is a helluva discount. As this thread can attest, many Cannon skiers aren't Loon or Attitash skiers. So, even if the Attitash/Wildcat deal is better, it doesn't matter to them. Also consider, that Attitash and Wildcat are NO WHERE near as convenient to get to as Cannon from the State's major population center.

It's apparent with how you are arguing against the discount that you are somewhat selfish and only care about which discounts apply to you. Ultimately, your argument that Cannon doesn't offer great discounts to NH residents is piss poor.

If you want to argue that the State needs the revenue leasing would bring, fine. But don't go about it by suggesting that Cannon isn't a great deal for residents. It most certainly is and I don't want to see that go away. Heck, even if Cannon loses a million a year, I'm fine with paying the state an extra dollar in taxes.

threecy · May 1, 2011

Cannonball said:
Why not lease out the Flume as well.

New Hampshire doesn't have millions of dollars of debt due to the Flume at the moment, nor does it have the risk of the Flume losing hundreds of thousands of dollars this year.

Cannonball said:
But somehow I don't think the NH (or Federal) financial crisis will be solved by any amount of public land leasing.

If one were to look at any/all budget line items this way, the crisis would never be fixed.

deadheadskier said:
It's apparent with how you are arguing against the discount that you are somewhat selfish and only care about which discounts apply to you. Ultimately, your argument that Cannon doesn't offer great discounts to NH residents is piss poor.

A NH resident has one chance per week (non-vacation week) to take the day off in order to get a discount. Otherwise, the resident has to drop over half a grand in order to get a discount.

How does the average hard working NH family take advantage of that? Take the day off work and take the kids out of school? Or drop a thousand+ dollars and get a season pass?

Heck, even if Cannon loses a million a year, I'm fine with paying the state an extra dollar in taxes.

Cannon has cost New Hampshire millions of dollars. Last I knew, the State of New Hampshire will gladly accept your offer of sending extra dollars:

Collection Division
PO Box 454
Concord, NH 03302-0454

deadheadskier · May 1, 2011

threecy said:
A NH resident has one chance per week (non-vacation week) to take the day off in order to get a discount. Otherwise, the resident has to drop over half a grand in order to get a discount.

How does the average hard working NH family take advantage of that? Take the day off work and take the kids out of school? Or drop a thousand+ dollars and get a season pass?

:lol:

really? You're going to call $546 "Over half a grand" :lol:

Well, if they were out of stater skiers, they'd have to pay almost THREE QUARTERS OF A GRAND. Can you believe it? THREE QUARTERS OF A GRAND

:lol:

either way, out of state skiers pay significantly more for Cannon's product than residents do. Sunapee doesn't come close to offering the same resident deals as Cannon does. I don't know how you can argue that the resident deals are not fantastic. The numbers back it up.

I don't know why I bother. You are completely blind on this subject to anyone else's opinion, but yours. Think we turned this discussion into a 20 pager the last time.

moving on

threecy · May 2, 2011

deadheadskier said:
really? You're going to call $546 "Over half a grand" :lol:

Is $546 not over half a grand?

Again, in order to take advantage of these discounts, a hard working family has two choices - 1) take the day off work and take the kids out of school or 2) purchase $1,630+ in season passes. Do you not see how exclusive that actually is?

deadheadskier said:
Sunapee doesn't come close to offering the same resident deals as Cannon does.

A requirement can be written into a Cannon lease for resident deals.

The now has almost a decade and a half of experience with the Sunapee lease - most concerns raised by that agreement can be written into a new Cannon lease.

riverc0il · May 2, 2011

threecy said:
Again, in order to take advantage of these discounts, a hard working family has two choices - 1) take the day off work and take the kids out of school or 2) purchase $1,630+ in season passes. Do you not see how exclusive that actually is?.

So you are advocating that Cannon discounts their highest margin day ticket while at the same time being concerned about the potential for Cannon not running in the black? I am all for Cannon being a better value, especially for NH residents. But I think they are running in the black right now not just due to good snow years, but because they stopped offering weekend discounts and increased their ticket rates to be on par with similar mountains.

deadheadskier · May 2, 2011

threecy said:
Is $546 not over half a grand?

Again, in order to take advantage of these discounts, a hard working family has two choices - 1) take the day off work and take the kids out of school or 2) purchase $1,630+ in season passes. Do you not see how exclusive that actually is?

A requirement can be written into a Cannon lease for resident deals.

The now has almost a decade and a half of experience with the Sunapee lease - most concerns raised by that agreement can be written into a new Cannon lease.

Newsflash 1 - not everyone has kids. In fact less than half of US households have kids under 18 living at home.

Newsflash 2 - I know my father took several days off of work throughout his career to go golfing, ski, whatever, without pulling me out of school

Newsflash 3 - I know at least once a season growing up, my dad took me out of school to enjoy a day of midweek skiing.

Newsflash 4 - The same out of state family of 4 pays $2176+ for season passes. A FULL HALF A GRAND more than residents :lol:

If they wrote it into the lease that the resident discounts should be extended that's fine. Again, your argument that the resident deals at Cannon aren't fantastic is piss poor.

Personally, I don't think this is even about the state government fiscal situation for you. I think it's more a personal beef you have with ski areas. Maybe you lost a job, a contract, don't like someone in management at Cannon, I don't know. In our last discussion on the matter you seemed to completely write off other massive expenditures at State Parks that I presented, only to focus on this one. Because of that, it's pointless for anyone to even bother discussing this with you.

Anyways, nice day today. Maybe I'll head down to Hampton Beach State Park. See how the state's $14M project is coming along there. I know I'll enjoy it this summer. Too bad I don't get a resident discount on parking.

threecy · May 2, 2011

deadheadskier said:
Personally,

This seems to be a recurring theme with your posts. You'll note that I try to stay on the topic of Cannon and the state, whereas you seem to always want to make the conversation about me and fill it with false assumptions.

Cannonball · May 2, 2011

There seems to be no consensus on whether Cannon operates in the black or the red, and by how much. I certainly don't know all the history and detail in regards to Cannon's profit/loss. But the economics of it seem very simple to me. There are two options:

A) It can't be a profitable operation (due to restrictions of development etc). If that's the case no private entity would want to lease it and the state is stuck with doing the best it can.

B) It can be a profitable operation. From a lease standpoint the private entity would have to bring in enough to cover all operations PLUS the cost of the lease. If this is the case, then the state can operate it themselves as a revenue generator. Presumably making a whole lot more than the private entity since they won't be paying a lease.

threecy · May 2, 2011

riverc0il said:
So you are advocating that Cannon discounts their highest margin day ticket while at the same time being concerned about the potential for Cannon not running in the black? I am all for Cannon being a better value, especially for NH residents. But I think they are running in the black right now not just due to good snow years, but because they stopped offering weekend discounts and increased their ticket rates to be on par with similar mountains.

You're noting the Catch-22 - do the vast majority of NH taxpayers subsidize skiing for others, or do NH taxpayers subsidize a ski area that doesn't even offer a majority of the NH skiers there a discount, or do NH taxpayers subsidize a ski area that competes with taxpaying businesses?

The only main concern of anti-lease folks that cannot be addressed in a lease agreement is their desire to have the state run this recreational business. Virtually everything else can be addressed in the lease agreement - preventing the further destruction of historic trails, providing NH discounts, requiring full time, year round jobs with benefits, preventing real estate development, ensuring tram operations 7 days a week, etc.

threecy · May 2, 2011

Cannonball said:
But the economics of it seem very simple to me. There are two options:

A) It can't be a profitable operation (due to restrictions of development etc). If that's the case no private entity would want to lease it and the state is stuck with doing the best it can.

B) It can be a profitable operation. From a lease standpoint the private entity would have to bring in enough to cover all operations PLUS the cost of the lease. If this is the case, then the state can operate it themselves as a revenue generator. Presumably making a whole lot more than the private entity since they won't be paying a lease.

There are hundreds of defunct ski areas throughout New England in part because folks thought it was a simple economic model. The ski industry is not this simple. It's been noted that, prior to the recent few good snow years, Cannon tended have a trend of a having one or two bad seasons that wiped out the gains of many good seasons.

Leasing it to a private operator removes the risk from the state's budget.

There are also many things the private sector can do that the state can't. Look back at the Mittersill chairlift - the main reason that chairlift was purchased as such a ridiculously high price was because of the nature of having it as a state-bid-in-current-year type of project. Putting aside the refurbish options just for sake of discussion, one of the reasons the lift was so expensive was that they went to bid in May!

thetrailboss · May 2, 2011

threecy said:
There are also many things the private sector can do that the state can't. Look back at the Mittersill chairlift - the main reason that chairlift was purchased as such a ridiculously high price was because of the nature of having it as a state-bid-in-current-year type of project. Putting aside the refurbish options just for sake of discussion, one of the reasons the lift was so expensive was that they went to bid in May!

:roll:

Cannonball · May 2, 2011

threecy said:
There are hundreds of defunct ski areas throughout New England in part because folks thought it was a simple economic model. The ski industry is not this simple. It's been noted that, prior to the recent few good snow years, Cannon tended have a trend of a having one or two bad seasons that wiped out the gains of many good seasons.

Leasing it to a private operator removes the risk from the state's budget.

So what happens when the private operator/leasee goes bust? I have been involved in a few debacles at the local/state/and federal level where leasee's have thought they could operate a profitable business on public lands. As their businesses fall apart they tend to start doing anything possible to stay afloat. This is frequently at a huge detriment to the property. And results in an enormous cost for the public land holder (NH in this case). And this can happen in just about any industry.

Leasing can ADD as much (or more) risk as it removes.

Cannon Mountain...thoughts

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