Killington: the Apocalypse

Hawkshot99 · Oct 6, 2007

riverc0il said:
Who ever said they were targeting the "rich person" that go to Stratton or Stowe as you suggested? The well to do city slicker crowd looking for some night life without the riff raff is a score at Killington still. It is even more appealing to the well to do NYC crowded now that the Joeys, families, and young kids can't afford the A41.

Why change the business model? Because Killington no longer has any other resorts to pander a cheap A41 pass with. They certainly can not stay the course on ASC's business model. Why change business models? Because the people who designed the previous business model all just filed for unemployment.

I know the crowd of people this type of move will attract and I think it is a financially sound and logical move from a business stand point. Did they burn too many bridges and cause too much negative press in the process? Perhaps. But attracting industry savy customers is not what the new management is about, IMO. The crowd going to Kmart is going to be looking for the all inclusive package at a big mountain and will want to feel treated well without being posh and exclusive. Certainly the NYC and CT markets will be the biggest draw, but the demographics are going to change significantly.

Try to be objective about the whole thing. Lots of people are bent out of shape about Killington changing because they were vested into the mountain. I can understand, I blow some steam too when my personal favourites change things up in ways I don't like. I can usually see it as a business decision even if I do not agree or desire the change.

Stop thinking logically. Now back to The Hatred of Killlington!

tcharron · Oct 6, 2007

riverc0il said:
Who ever said they were targeting the "rich person" that go to Stratton or Stowe as you suggested? The well to do city slicker crowd looking for some night life without the riff raff is a score at Killington still. It is even more appealing to the well to do NYC crowded now that the Joeys, families, and young kids can't afford the A41.

Why change the business model? Because Killington no longer has any other resorts to pander a cheap A41 pass with. They certainly can not stay the course on ASC's business model. Why change business models? Because the people who designed the previous business model all just filed for unemployment.

I know the crowd of people this type of move will attract and I think it is a financially sound and logical move from a business stand point. Did they burn too many bridges and cause too much negative press in the process? Perhaps. But attracting industry savy customers is not what the new management is about, IMO. The crowd going to Kmart is going to be looking for the all inclusive package at a big mountain and will want to feel treated well without being posh and exclusive. Certainly the NYC and CT markets will be the biggest draw, but the demographics are going to change significantly.

Try to be objective about the whole thing. Lots of people are bent out of shape about Killington changing because they were vested into the mountain. I can understand, I blow some steam too when my personal favourites change things up in ways I don't like. I can usually see it as a business decision even if I do not agree or desire the change.

Time will tell. If they increase prices 25%, and lose 25% of their ski base, then they're golden. The question will be, how much of their vacationing base will they lose, NOT the day skiers. And even more important, how are they intending on differentiating themselves from the competition? I personally don't see any sort of marketing push to go twards their supposed new target market.

Newpylong · Oct 6, 2007

riverc0il said:
Has any one really put much of a stink up about Killington except former Killington skiers, especially those that lost out on the A41? Quite frankly, as a non-Kmart skier, Killington looks better and better everyday. And maybe that is part of what they are going for....

Really? You like less lifts, terrain, lodges, a shorter season, and increased prices?

I think you're drinking different water up there in Vermont.

millerm277 · Oct 6, 2007

riverc0il said:
Why change the business model? Because Killington no longer has any other resorts to pander a cheap A41 pass with. They certainly can not stay the course on ASC's business model. Why change business models? Because the people who designed the previous business model all just filed for unemployment.

I'm not talking about the A41 pass. I'm talking about the business model that made Killington successful in the first place. Open early, close late, provide a good experience at a reasonable price and take the profits you reap and put most of them back into the resort to make it continually bigger and better.

riverc0il · Oct 6, 2007

Newpylong said:
Really? You like less lifts, terrain, lodges, a shorter season, and increased prices?

I think you're drinking different water up there in Vermont.

Funny thing is, is that I don't drink Vermont water. Look under my avatar... and then read all of my posts because your reply doesn't seem to fully grasp the reasoning behind what I typed.

riverc0il · Oct 6, 2007

millerm277 said:
I'm not talking about the A41 pass. I'm talking about the business model that made Killington successful in the first place. Open early, close late, provide a good experience at a reasonable price and take the profits you reap and put most of them back into the resort to make it continually bigger and better.

Open early / Close late is not a successful business model! Period! It certainly made Killington well known and provided good marking and a brand identity, but it is not a successful business model. That is why it was abandoned. As far as reasonable price and putting most of the money back into the resort, maybe that was the case with Preston Smith (I honestly don't know, before my time quite frankly) but definitely not the case with ASC. The money that ASC invested into the ski area was debt money and Killington did not charge reasonable day ticket prices under ASC management. When you say "provide a good experience," I think this is what the current management is going for (I swear I am repeating myself a third time, but I will harp on it again): by decreasing overcrowding (specifically rude customers) which by default will improve snow conditions the experience will improve. Some people may be unhappy about the Skyship or other cut backs but I am not measuring Killington against shutting down an under utilized lift during the week. MOST RESORTS DO THIS. Very few resorts, if any of the larger resorts, run 100% of their lifts during the week. Now, you can argue this is a significant lift and that it services condos, etc. and that is a very good argument. But from a pure terrain and experience point of view from the average skier, it is a completely non-issue.

GrilledSteezeSandwich · Oct 6, 2007

I believe Killington will still get alot of skier visits this season..mainly from the occasional skiers. Down here in PA, most 10 day a year skiers think of Killington as the biggest and best in the east. They'll ski 6-8 days in the Poconos and take their one "Big" trip to Killington where they'll drop a couple grand on a long weekend trip with the family..eating out every meal..and buying food on-mountain..buying facemasks, goggles, sunscreen, and other essentials at inflated prices on the Access road. I believe most of those types of skiers aren't spending the summer/fall reading about skiing on the net and are therefore unaware of the changes Killington made...and they'll mainly be skiing during weekend/Holiday times when all the lifts are running...but I see them losing alot of locals who will probably head up to Sugarbush or Stowe more often..and of course the former lifetime passholders who still get limited privalages for the next 2 years. I'm curious to see how long Powder will own Killington..my guess is less than 5 years...we'll see...it is the most popular/well known ski resort in the East...and Killington was the first place I ever skied in Vermont...A beginner/low intermediate isn't smart enough to know that the 3k+ of vert and 10 mile long trails are just marketing shenanigans..The beast of the east will most likely do O.K. due to their awesome snowmaking capacity...it's sad to me that there is no longer June skiing on Superstar...
"

Nor'easter · Oct 6, 2007

I'm with tcharron. My ski season revolves around midweek ski and stay packages. It's the most affordable AND enjoyable way for me to ski. I can get the lowest prices while avoiding the weekend/holiday crowd. With that said, I will ABSOLUTELY rule Killington out this year. I live in NY, and I'll be damned if I'm going to drive to Vermont to a resort that closes lodges AND mountains during my stay. Are you kidding me?!?! They're closing the mountain (Pico) during the week?!?!?

uke: What a joke. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard they are closing Skyeship during the week? Travesty. That lodge was a peaceful oasis in the middle of a major resort. It also provided, in my mind the CRITICAL link in accessing all the additional terrain that makes it such a big resort. Other than global warming, this has to be the most depressing news of this year's ski season. And for anybody saying Killington is turning into Stratton...this year's BEST ski & stay package that I've found is at Stratton.

Man, I hate giving out my sweet spots, but the AZ'ers deserve it for Killington's arrogance and stupidity... Stratton : $59/pp/pn ski and stay midweek. (Should have put this in the Skiing on the cheap thread, but I'm so pissed with what I've heard, I'm just ranting).

Lostone · Oct 6, 2007

Total customer replacement!

I think that is the goal of the new owners. They had the maximum of the down-market customers. They are betting that they can handle a number of years of losses, while their (former) customers leave.

After that time, they are hoping to attract much more of an up-market class of customers with their terrain. Those customers won't need early and late season, as they don't ski then, anyway.

It will be interesting how many of those people will be available, as all areas are after them.

But as to their present customers... I'm reminded of an old joke.

A woman comes home and announces to her husband, "Harry, I just won the lottery. Pack your bags." Her husband says, "Should I pack for the ocean or the mountains?"

She answers, "I don't care. Just get out."

That's what I feel K-mart is saying to the former ASC customers.

mattchuck2 · Oct 6, 2007

riverc0il said:
When you say "provide a good experience," I think this is what the current management is going for (I swear I am repeating myself a third time, but I will harp on it again): by decreasing overcrowding (specifically rude customers) which by default will improve snow conditions the experience will improve.

What you have to ask yourself is, are the changes they are instituting going to get rid of "rude" customers? Or are they changes more likely to get rid of dedicated season pass holders who ski hard from November-May?

I agree that Killington is generally overrun with Jackasses, but I feel as though the changes they are instituting is likely to increase the jackass/normal skier ratio rather than decrease it.

As someone said, a lot of their business is from NYC - with a bunch of poor skiing/rude people who will come up regardless. It's the locals and other regulars that will be forced out here. Locals who generally ski better and are more laid back (brash generalization, I know, but you can debate locals vs. vacationers in a different thread if you want). Sure, there might be less people on the hill, but the people who will be left are people who I probably don't want to ski with anyway.

millerm277 · Oct 6, 2007

riverc0il said:
Open early / Close late is not a successful business model! Period! It certainly made Killington well known and provided good marking and a brand identity, but it is not a successful business model. That is why it was abandoned. As far as reasonable price and putting most of the money back into the resort, maybe that was the case with Preston Smith (I honestly don't know, before my time quite frankly) but definitely not the case with ASC.

Killington hasn't lost money in 50 years......even with the oil crisis's and everything else, they had a 200 day season for 22 years straight and made money with it.

I would call that a pretty damn successful business model, and I would also say that there aren't a whole lot of other ski areas that have been profitable for over 50 years straight.

Very few resorts, if any of the larger resorts, run 100% of their lifts during the week. Now, you can argue this is a significant lift and that it services condos, etc. and that is a very good argument. But from a pure terrain and experience point of view from the average skier, it is a completely non-issue.

I don't expect them to run 100% of their lifts, and they don't run most of them during the week anyway. Most resorts DO keep enough lifts open to service all of their terrain. Also, Lower Skyeship is more important to the average skier than to most people here, as it services K's best (and only real) decent beginner terrain.

deadheadskier · Oct 6, 2007

millerm277 said:
Killington hasn't lost money in 50 years......even with the oil crisis's and everything else, they had a 200 day season for 22 years straight and made money with it.

I would call that a pretty damn successful business model, and I would also say that there aren't a whole lot of other ski areas that have been profitable for over 50 years straight.

Curious where you heard this? I took a course in Ski Area management at UVM in 2000. One of the classes included a symposium with a dozen or so industry veterans, including a couple from ASC. One of the common themes was how difficult it was for a ski are to turn a profit minus real estate sales. It was pointed out that only two ski areas in Vermont had remained profitable every year for the 1990's and those two were Okemo and Smuggs.

millerm277 · Oct 6, 2007

deadheadskier said:
Curious where you heard this? I took a course in Ski Area management at UVM in 2000. One of the classes included a symposium with a dozen or so industry veterans, including a couple from ASC. One of the common themes was how difficult it was for a ski are to turn a profit minus real estate sales. It was pointed out that only two ski areas in Vermont had remained profitable every year for the 1990's and those two were Okemo and Smuggs.

I did make one minor error, K lost money in 1995, it was profitable every year from 1960-1995, and has been profitable every year since then to my knowledge. I'll look up the recent numbers tomorrow from the SEC filings if you want to see whatever they had going the last few years.

deadheadskier · Oct 6, 2007

millerm277 said:
I did make one minor error, K lost money in 1995, it was profitable every year from 1960-1995, and has been profitable every year since then to my knowledge. I'll look up the recent numbers tomorrow from the SEC filings if you want to see whatever they had going the last few years.

fair enough, it was just something that had stuck in my mind since school, so I was suprised to hear that they had been profitable every year. For the most part though, I guess they have been.

Newpylong · Oct 7, 2007

riverc0il said:
Funny thing is, is that I don't drink Vermont water. Look under my avatar... and then read all of my posts because your reply doesn't seem to fully grasp the reasoning behind what I typed.

My apologies, for some reason I thought your avatar said St. Johnsbury, not Jay. It's been a long week.

Other than that, no need for me to re-read anything. I get your jist, and I just have a different opinion. Any resort that wishes to cut skier visits to improve their business is doomed.

Highway Star · Oct 8, 2007

riverc0il said:
Open early / Close late is not a successful business model! Period! It certainly made Killington well known and provided good marking and a brand identity, but it is not a successful business model. That is why it was abandoned. As far as reasonable price and putting most of the money back into the resort, maybe that was the case with Preston Smith (I honestly don't know, before my time quite frankly) but definitely not the case with ASC. The money that ASC invested into the ski area was debt money and Killington did not charge reasonable day ticket prices under ASC management. When you say "provide a good experience," I think this is what the current management is going for (I swear I am repeating myself a third time, but I will harp on it again): by decreasing overcrowding (specifically rude customers) which by default will improve snow conditions the experience will improve. Some people may be unhappy about the Skyship or other cut backs but I am not measuring Killington against shutting down an under utilized lift during the week. MOST RESORTS DO THIS. Very few resorts, if any of the larger resorts, run 100% of their lifts during the week. Now, you can argue this is a significant lift and that it services condos, etc. and that is a very good argument. But from a pure terrain and experience point of view from the average skier, it is a completely non-issue.

Sorry dude, but you really don't have a clue about this!!!

tcharron · Oct 8, 2007

Highway Star said:
Sorry dude, but you really don't have a clue about this!!!

Actually, it IS valid. It's a cost vs reward situation. I personally believe the detriment done by devaluing the condo/housing isn't worth the cost savings, but it could be argued.

Let me ask you a question. Midweek, how many people actively visit, midday? If you take that number, and figure out how much money they bring in on a weekday, that's the LOWEST possible number they can work with. Operating at a loss isn't a valid business model.

Ending an arguement where you disagree with 'You're on crack' really doesn't provide anything worthwhile besides one person slamming a door, jumping on the floor, and screaming, 'NONONONONONONONO!'.

billski · Oct 8, 2007

what's going for them is..

The proximity to huge NYC metro market is the big attraction. It's really all about drawing as much money as they can. You can say you skied in Vermont (Kmart feels like the only non-VT part of VT) after barreling up the Thruway while running a couple old grandmas off the road. Don't forget, every sentence starts with "gimmie" and eye contact is forbidden. Ever notice how few people smile there?

I have a friend in high tech sales, and their management is extremely careful about who they picked for the NYC territory. Thick-skinned, want it all, want it now, no niceties, no manners, me-first, selfish, push-push, shove-shove, no-holds barred. Most sales people in the rest of America are "too nice" to survive NYC.

So you cater to your market. Kmart can treat people like crap because they tolerate it. Kmart skiers are not there to be treated nicely. Kmart gives them what they want - the badge that they skied in Vermont, at some awesomely huge place for experts, stories to tell over your $7 coffee on Monday morning, for whothehellcareshowmuchitcost price. They drop money all over the place, not just in tix - howabouta$4cookie?

I suspect most skiers on this group want to have a good time skiing in a friendly atmosphere. That's not what the metro crowd wants.

Face it, Kmart should be annexed to NY State.

disclaimer - I was born in NY and have inlaws in NJ, but I've lived in New England for 29 years and would never go back.

tcharron · Oct 8, 2007

millerm277 said:
Killington hasn't lost money in 50 years......even with the oil crisis's and everything else, they had a 200 day season for 22 years straight and made money with it.

I would call that a pretty damn successful business model, and I would also say that there aren't a whole lot of other ski areas that have been profitable for over 50 years straight.

I'd be really interested to know what the snow making cost breakdown was over the last 22 years. Because I really don't see how they could argue it's economical given the current climate.

millerm277 said:
I don't expect them to run 100% of their lifts, and they don't run most of them during the week anyway. Most resorts DO keep enough lifts open to service all of their terrain. Also, Lower Skyeship is more important to the average skier than to most people here, as it services K's best (and only real) decent beginner terrain.

So devils advocate here. What lifts do they close?

Don't get me wrong, as I stated earlier, I am NOT going to Killington for the near future, but it doesn't have to do with the closing of one lift. It's the 'big picture' that I don't like, AND based on what is now available midweek, I'm not going to waste over a grand a pop going with the kids when we're not going to get maximum enjoyment out of it.

millerm277 · Oct 8, 2007

tcharron said:
I'd be really interested to know what the snow making cost breakdown was over the last 22 years. Because I really don't see how they could argue it's economical given the current climate.

Obviously, I don't have access to those numbers, but there are many things they could do to make early openings and late closings more economical. The only guns (K3000's) they have that can blow snow in marginal temps are horribly inefficient, if they switched over to Ratnik guns it would cost about 25% of what it does now.

They could move the late closing to be back on Downdraft, as it's much narrower (which means less snow required), and holds snow much better than Superstar does.

So devils advocate here. What lifts do they close?

Lifts that run every day:

Rams Head HSQ
Snowdon Quad
North Ridge Triple (not sure on this one)
K1
Skye Peak Quad
Superstar HSQ
Snowshed HSQ
Skyeship Stage I and II (Stage I will be weekends only this year)
Sunrise Triple

Lifts that run Weekends but not weekdays in the past:

Snowdon Triple
Canyon Quad
Needle's Eye HSQ
Northbrook Quad
Bear Mtn Quad
South Ridge Triple*
Snowshed Doubles

*It only ran a few days last year, but they said it will run weekends this year.

Lifts that rarely run:
Devil's Fiddle Quad
South Ridge Triple (last year)

Killington: the Apocalypse

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