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Killington = EPIC FAIL. Late March 2012 no snowmaking edition.

drjeff

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All makes perfect sense for a penny pincher. That's not me...bottom line doesn't drive my entertainment/recreation decisions all the time. I think everyone agrees a business has to be profitable, but there are different ways to squeeze out a profit and it seems lots of people don't like how K does that. Not sure what went on the upper echelons of SR management to decide to blow snow, but they obviously didn't ONLY consider the profit/loss, but that the PR, smiles and goodwill probably do a heck of a lot more good then holding back to save what is relatively peanuts. Do you know how much gatorade, chips, pizzas and things 800 teenage Brits consume? LOL..

Totally get how much $$ 800 or so teenage brits spend on sugary snack foods (have you ever seen a typical Brit's teeth? ;) )

From what I garner, it sounds like SR and Loon needed to just patch up some of the terrain that so many of the Brits would be using. K, based on what I skied on at K, the day before the warm air arrived, is more likely looking at basically having to start over on the terrain that so many of the Brit's would be using. And having to blow enougn snow to reopen from likely close to scratch a few miles of terrain on some "gooey" ground now is a totally different situation than some patch work. With modern snowmaking technology, most heads of mountain ops these days can find out within a few hundred dollars what it would cost, given anticipated weather conditions to open a trail, and i'm sure those figures were weighed against the amount of revenue that the Brits were committed to for lodging, rentals and lessons and best guess based on past years of the amount of food and beverage revenue they consume.

If anything the biggest arguement against longer operations today for many a GM/Mountain Ops manager is the simple fact that modern technology today can give such a much more accurrate figure as to what it actually costs to make snow on a trail vs. the past where there was much more guess work involved. And in the business world there is a difference between hearing something like "I think it will cost around 20 grand to get that trail open" vs. "it will cost $22,750 based on X hours running Y number of this type of guns or we could open it for $24,250 based on Y number of that type of gun running for Z hours" Too much info can be both interesting and scary sometimes.

I never fully appreciated the "bean counter" side of things until I started running my own business and was signing the checks and really became aware of actual return on investment vs. theorectical/perceived return on investment. It's one thing to look at it when it's "other peoples money" it's another thing to look at it when it's YOUR money
 

deadheadskier

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Highway Star, got your Mega Millions ticket purchased? News this morning said the Jackpot is like $350M. You could be the new owner.
 

twinplanx

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While I do agree w/ HS here, it does suck that K won't blow...I do not have time to scan the five or so pages, so can some one explain the aforementioned "British Invasion" Is there some sort of English Holiday or what? Also a question for the infamous HighwayStar: What keeps you coming back to Killington?
 

bobbutts

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I never fully appreciated the "bean counter" side of things until I started running my own business and was signing the checks and really became aware of actual return on investment vs. theorectical/perceived return on investment. It's one thing to look at it when it's "other peoples money" it's another thing to look at it when it's YOUR money

When it's YOUR money you have to consider the long term just as much as the next quarter's p/l. Killington is not a small business with a single person in charge. I think it was more like that with Pres Smith, look at the types of decisions that were made then vs. now.
 

bobbutts

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While I do agree w/ HS here, it does suck that K won't blow...I do not have time to scan the five or so pages, so can some one explain the aforementioned "British Invasion" Is there some sort of English Holiday or what? Also a question for the infamous HighwayStar: What keeps you coming back to Killington?

There was a group trip booked at Killington reportedly 800 British skiers that has been cancelled this year due to lack of coverage. I remember there were similar invasions back in the 90's so I believe it's been a long term annual thing.
 

SkiFanE

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While I do agree w/ HS here, it does suck that K won't blow...I do not have time to scan the five or so pages, so can some one explain the aforementioned "British Invasion" Is there some sort of English Holiday or what? Also a question for the infamous HighwayStar: What keeps you coming back to Killington?

At SR gaggles of HS students from Britain descend in early April. They seem to be put into groups of 20-30 to ski, I think they have a guide/leader from SR (?). Just your typical unruly teens with cool English accents. I'm sure they are important to the mountain at a time when it's getting deserted. And I'm joking about unruly...just your typical self centered teens lol.
 

Highway Star

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If anything the biggest arguement against longer operations today for many a GM/Mountain Ops manager is the simple fact that modern technology today can give such a much more accurrate figure as to what it actually costs to make snow on a trail vs. the past where there was much more guess work involved. And in the business world there is a difference between hearing something like "I think it will cost around 20 grand to get that trail open" vs. "it will cost $22,750 based on X hours running Y number of this type of guns or we could open it for $24,250 based on Y number of that type of gun running for Z hours" Too much info can be both interesting and scary sometimes.

I'm sorry, but you act like it's some sort of high tech thing to estimate how much water, air, power and fuel are needed to make a certain amount of snow. It's not compicated at all, and something ski areas have done for decades, probably since they started making snow. It certainly doesn't take a computer or spreadsheet. The math involved in designing a snowmaking system in the first place is far more complex.
 

2knees

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I'm sorry, but you act like it's some sort of high tech thing to estimate how much water, air, power and fuel are needed to make a certain amount of snow. It's not compicated at all, and something ski areas have done for decades, probably since they started making snow. It certainly doesn't take a computer or spreadsheet. The math involved in designing a snowmaking system in the first place is far more complex.


http://www.allsportsevents.com/Results/triathlon_results/KT02ResultsbySex.pdf
 

Gilligan

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It really pains me to say that I'm with HS on this one. Its kind of like the boy crying wolf deal.So many negative K threads delute his messages.Before I read this thread though,I already was wondering if K would step up with the other 5 reasorts and show their commitment and make snow.Looks like a NO.

I agree.
 

HowieT2

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I don't have a horse in this race but it seems to me that is unusual for any mountain to choose to make snow at the end of march. I'm sure those that are, have their reasons, but given that this time of year is not profitable in the best of times, it's hard to criticize those that aren't. also, energy costs are up significantly from a decade ago.

That being said, what kind of money are we talking about 10k, 100k???

isn't there also the issue of human resources? aren't the snow makers already off the payroll and onto other things/places?
 

deadheadskier

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Hard to put a dollar figure on brand identity. The investment is good if it means more season passes and day visitors the following season. It's especially good if you have real estate to sell, which has a high ROI and your buyers are people looking for the longest season.

Boyne has clearly established themselves as the eastern ski company committed to making the most snow and having the best product possible for the longest season possible. That was Killington's brand identity for decades and they really didn't have any challengers. Now, after the past 5 years performance, I don't think anyone can question that Boyne is the market leader in those categories. Most snow made, best late season product, longest season.
 

drjeff

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I'm sorry, but you act like it's some sort of high tech thing to estimate how much water, air, power and fuel are needed to make a certain amount of snow. It's not compicated at all, and something ski areas have done for decades, probably since they started making snow. It certainly doesn't take a computer or spreadsheet. The math involved in designing a snowmaking system in the first place is far more complex.

Have you had a detailed discussion with an actual mountain ops and/or snow surfaces manager at a major ski area about this exact topic in the last few years?? There's been some game changing info available if they choose to use it
 

Highway Star

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Have you had a detailed discussion with an actual mountain ops and/or snow surfaces manager at a major ski area about this exact topic in the last few years?? There's been some game changing info available if they choose to use it

Yes. And I read industry info. I don't consider anything particularly "game changing".
 

Highway Star

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I don't have a horse in this race but it seems to me that is unusual for any mountain to choose to make snow at the end of march. I'm sure those that are, have their reasons, but given that this time of year is not profitable in the best of times, it's hard to criticize those that aren't. also, energy costs are up significantly from a decade ago.

That being said, what kind of money are we talking about 10k, 100k???

isn't there also the issue of human resources? aren't the snow makers already off the payroll and onto other things/places?

Very, very roughly, about $50k for 2 days of snowmaking on upper and middle superstar with about 40 snowguns, for about 4 ft of snow (or large whales).
 

WWF-VT

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Have you had a detailed discussion with an actual mountain ops and/or snow surfaces manager at a major ski area about this exact topic in the last few years?? There's been some game changing info available if they choose to use it

What kind of question is that? Highway Star is better than 99% of the skiers at Killington, an authority on technical aspects of skis and carving and has a PhD in Profitable Ski Mountain Operations (regardless of operating costs). How can you possibly question his knowledge of the physics and finance of snowmaking ?
 
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