Jay Peak Lift Rummors

Tin Woodsman said:

Finally, to riverCoil's point about cutting through Deliverance to take full advantage of the new lower mtn lift position, wouldn't you want people to get all the way over the Angel's Wiggle too? If so, might some intrustion into lower Canyonland be necessary as well? Or am I confused?

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Canyonland dumps out where Milk Run crosses Taxi and intersects Wiggle, so perhaps there would need to be some cutting through Canyonland too. I am just thinking ideal situation. I imagine that they would want a lower mountain lift to be able to serve the lower mountain trails so that Stateside has a lower mountain lift that can run in the wind like the Metro tramside. This seems especially important for folks that are already on mountain and have committed to their stay. A lift that could allow you to ski lower Stateside from Wiggle to Lower Can Am would certainly be a fun option on a wind hold powder day. Versus now, Metro Quad, T-Bar, Condo Double? Not so much fun.

Photo of Lower Can Am:



Took a hike this morning and took this photo from the bottom of the Bonnie. I have circled the area where I think the lift should terminate. Then to the right I have drawn the trail first suggested by rivercOil. I like the idea of this trail because it would give you a lot of options to ski when upper mountain lifts are on wind hold.

I really don't like the idea of that lift because it would pretty much destroy Deliverance. Deliverance is one of the most awesome trails in the East and now we're gonna destroy it so we can have a "Taxi" type crossover run. I think that's a horrible idea!

I've read this entire thread and it's surprising to me that there isn't more opposition against putting a 6-pack in at Jay???

I can understand running a lift up Powerline, but a 6-pack?? c'mon that's a bad idea!

The mountains in the East aren't big enough to support 6-packs, you need a lot of acres and a LOT of terrain for it to make sense. Imagine how a six-pack will destroy the aesthetics of Jay Peak. You have the beautiful Peak with the Tram Haus (I can't think of any ski hill that looks better IMO), and now right at the bottom of The Face there will be a huge terminal for a six-passenger chair. That will look ugly, believe me.

If they're planning on replacing the Bonnie, I agree with rerouting the lift to go on Powerline, but at most it should be a High Speed Quad, but better yet, I think it should simply be a new fixed grip quad, this is the best solution against wind. And with the top terminal under The Face, The Flyer trails will be accessible when it is on hold.

I don't need detachable chairs! I need chairs that get me to the top in all weather conditions! I respect Smuggs a lot for being true to their awesome terrain and keeping the place looking like a mountain rather than an amusement park. Jay should consider the same before installing these monster lifts.

That's my 2 cents.

My first reply may have sounded a bit more insider (factual) than it actually was (opinion). So just to clarify, I have no knowledge that a trail would be cut connecting a mid-mountain lift to Wiggle. That was just my thought as it would be an ideal lower mountain lift that could be open during high winds and serve some of Jay's more interesting lower mountain terrain. JPTracker posted a few times, with some rumor authority, that the Jet would be relocated as a cross over lift to eliminate the need for the T-bar. If it goes to where JPTracker suggests, I think hacking off the lower end of Deliverance would be worth having a few good lower mountain options when the wind howls.

Regarding the six pack... I really see no different between a HSQ and a Six Pack. I don't know how you can reasonably be for a quad but not a six. Its a high speed lift in either case. And I don't know how a Six would destroy Jay's character in any way. It already has two high speed lifts including Vermont's only tram and only one of two trams in the northeast. They ain't planning to run a Six up the Sunnyside at MRG or anything. Ending terminal for Ragged's Six doesn't seem any bigger than that for a HSQ. It would be just like the Freezer.

I think an argument that could be made is the potential for wind hold. The Bonnie and Jet can almost always run whereas the Freezer goes off line a lot. If the Bonnie Six got taken out due to wind as often as the Flyer, that would limit all mountain traffic to just the Jet. That would be disastrous.

The Six does make sense from a people moving perspective. Getting the end of the lift higher up on the high will spread more skiers out over the mountain. Tramside has plenty of elbow room even with the Flyer and Tram. So more people would go from the Bonnie to Tramside than currently do. Additionally, I don't really see any problem with elbow room on the trails coming down from the Bonnie. Considering how much real estate Jay has, the mountain really spreads people out even when all lifts are full. I don't see traffic and density on the trail as being a problem.

The increased speed of getting from the Stateside lot to any trail on the mountain with a high speed lift would be nice. Let's face it, the Bonnie as a Fixed Grip is a slow ride on a cold day. Extend that lift another couple hundred vert at the same fixed grip speed, and it becomes even longer.

Personally, I am no fan of high speed lifts. But they serve their purposes sometimes. If Jay thinks they can put a high speed lift in without suffering from any more wind holds than a Fixed Grip, then its a good idea (Quad or Six, I could care less). If there is even a slight increase of wind holds due to a high speed lift, it would be a disastrous idea which would effectively shut down all lifts but the Jet in a high wind storm (excepting those storms in which even the Jet can't run, but that usually by default means the Bonnie can not run either).

I'll admit it, I just don't like six packs. I find they're ugly. They are also difficult to load fully which reduces their efficiency. IMO, Quads are the workhorse of the industry and the way to go. A fixed grip in Jay's case.

riverc0il said:

I think an argument that could be made is the potential for wind hold. The Bonnie and Jet can almost always run whereas the Freezer goes off line a lot. If the Bonnie Six got taken out due to wind as often as the Flyer, that would limit all mountain traffic to just the Jet. That would be disastrous.

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That's exactly my point, the wind isn't going to disappear just because Jay is becoming a more classy resort. I hate showing up at the mountain to find out only "lower mtn" lifts are running, which happened about 4-5 times to me last year. I'm against anything that will cause more wind holds. I'd rather freeze my ass off on a fixed grip chair for a couple extra minutes than have the lifts shut down for the day.

The increased speed of getting from the Stateside lot to any trail on the mountain with a high speed lift would be nice. Let's face it, the Bonnie as a Fixed Grip is a slow ride on a cold day. Extend that lift another couple hundred vert at the same fixed grip speed, and it becomes even longer.

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Yes, it may be longer, but it's not necessarily colder. Nothing's worse than riding the Flyer in a cold January wind! So with another high speed lift, there will now be two ways up the mountain to freeze ones arse off. It's a bad idea plain and simple. Jay is too wind exposed and too cold to rely solely on High Speed Lifts. Have they not learned anything from the Flyer? I highly doubt that lift would be there had they known it was going to be so cold. And yes, there will be more wind holds. Get to know the Racoon Run because on those snowy (windy) powder days everyone will be lined up on the Village chair:-?

If there is even a slight increase of wind holds due to a high speed lift, it would be a disastrous idea which would effectively shut down all lifts but the Jet in a high wind storm (excepting those storms in which even the Jet can't run, but that usually by default means the Bonnie can not run either).

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Anyhow, I think we're on the same page. No more wind holds!

I hope someone at Jay is seeing this.

I am not sure the Freezer effect would impact a Bonnie replacement. However, there is a strong blast that hits you on the current Bonnie as you crest the ridge. Powerline seems more protected though. And at worst, the running distance between the Powerline/Northway intersection and the top of St Georges Prayer is only half the distance of Goat to Alligator Alley coming over the ridge on the Freezer. I can't imagine it being as bad, but who knows.

Wind hold is really the big issue is wind hold and I'd love to hear the official reasoning behind a high speed replacement and how a six pack will fair in Jay's wind, especially in comparison to the Bonnie and the Freezer.

riverc0il said:

I am not sure the Freezer effect would impact a Bonnie replacement. However, there is a strong blast that hits you on the current Bonnie as you crest the ridge. Powerline seems more protected though. And at worst, the running distance between the Powerline/Northway intersection and the top of St Georges Prayer is only half the distance of Goat to Alligator Alley coming over the ridge on the Freezer. I can't imagine it being as bad, but who knows.

Wind hold is really the big issue is wind hold and I'd love to hear the official reasoning behind a high speed replacement and how a six pack will fair in Jay's wind, especially in comparison to the Bonnie and the Freezer.

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When you come up over the ridge on the Bonnie the wind may be strong but it is usually blowing down the chair. When you move the chair over to power line the wind now hits the chair at an angle. A chair lift can take a pretty strong head on wind but a wind from the side will start the chairs swinging which will shut down the lift. So the difference between Saint Georges Prayer and the current location may not be as much the wind speed but the angle of the wind. I have rode the Freezer many times with a strong head on wind but when the wind starts to blow from the side and the chairs start to swing you know that it will be shut down soon.

Mill's grist.

Sorry about not chiming in sooner on this. We're not 100% sure on any of this so I'll give you a snapshot of where we are (philosophically) right now with it. Part of the reason we haven't been talking in public about this was to try and avoid the West Bowling of information as we've done in the past (having it on the trail map as coming soon for a decade sort of thing). As things come together in a more solid fashion, we'll let you know. For now though..

The existing Bonnie is scheduled to be replaced for next season. Current thinking is that the new lift might be placed on the Power Line trail with the top terminal on or about the top of St. George's-this is very similar to the old alignment of the original Bonnie Chair and would offer access to the JFK pod-insert 'If it aint broke, why'd you fix it' axiom here. To that end, we're installing an anemometer this fall to measure wind at that unload section to compare it to winds we've measured (ranging from Wow to Good Lord) along the Flyer line and the Tram Summit to make sure that if the new lift does go to St. George's then it will not be (as) affected by winds that tend to shut down the Flyer.

In order to address wind and chair-swing issues that were present in the original Bonnie line (great trail access aside), we are thinking that the new lift may be a six-pack (potential apologies Dale) as the chairs are considerably heavier (and thus less susceptible to wind), there will be fewer of them (giving folks more time to load) and we will design the uphill capacity to be in harmony with that of the terrain's downhill; capacity that is.

Side note-a number of bloggers and members of the social-media elite have asked why detachable chairs are more susceptible to wind than fixed-grips. It has to do with the need for the chair to be properly and well aligned with the terminal entry (not swinging) and this causes the lift to shut down (I'm oversimplifying here).

Current thinking also has us retrofitting the existing Bonnie Quad (we're not very good at throwing things away anyway) and used to replace the Jet Triple. Again uphill capacity would be designed and tweaked to sync with that of the terrain capacity so stay tuned here. The Jet Triple could then be re-installed to serve a lower-mountain pod that could include the terrain park (+1 to Riv here) and other pieces of intermediate terrain as well as access back to Tram Base from Stateside.

T-Bar his history-but we may end up with another conveyor lift to serve some beginner terrain and the kids area at the base of Stateside.

Sufficiently ambiguous? Sorry if I am but this stuff isn't near stone yet. As always, we'll try to make the best, most informed decision we can. Feel free to post or send (swright@jaypeakresort.com) comments and we'll consider them. Hope you're all well and looking forward to getting rolling soon.

Best

steve

Steve@jpr said:

Sorry about not chiming in sooner on this. We're not 100% sure on any of this so I'll give you a snapshot of where we are (philosophically) right now with it. Part of the reason we haven't been talking in public about this was to try and avoid the West Bowling of information as we've done in the past (having it on the trail map as coming soon for a decade sort of thing). As things come together in a more solid fashion, we'll let you know. For now though..

The existing Bonnie is scheduled to be replaced for next season. Current thinking is that the new lift might be placed on the Power Line trail with the top terminal on or about the top of St. George's-this is very similar to the old alignment of the original Bonnie Chair and would offer access to the JFK pod-insert 'If it aint broke, why'd you fix it' axiom here. To that end, we're installing an anemometer this fall to measure wind at that unload section to compare it to winds we've measured (ranging from Wow to Good Lord) along the Flyer line and the Tram Summit to make sure that if the new lift does go to St. George's then it will not be (as) affected by winds that tend to shut down the Flyer.

In order to address wind and chair-swing issues that were present in the original Bonnie line (great trail access aside), we are thinking that the new lift may be a six-pack (potential apologies Dale) as the chairs are considerably heavier (and thus less susceptible to wind), there will be fewer of them (giving folks more time to load) and we will design the uphill capacity to be in harmony with that of the terrain's downhill; capacity that is.

Side note-a number of bloggers and members of the social-media elite have asked why detachable chairs are more susceptible to wind than fixed-grips. It has to do with the need for the chair to be properly and well aligned with the terminal entry (not swinging) and this causes the lift to shut down (I'm oversimplifying here).

Current thinking also has us retrofitting the existing Bonnie Quad (we're not very good at throwing things away anyway) and used to replace the Jet Triple. Again uphill capacity would be designed and tweaked to sync with that of the terrain capacity so stay tuned here. The Jet Triple could then be re-installed to serve a lower-mountain pod that could include the terrain park (+1 to Riv here) and other pieces of intermediate terrain as well as access back to Tram Base from Stateside.

T-Bar his history-but we may end up with another conveyor lift to serve some beginner terrain and the kids area at the base of Stateside.

Sufficiently ambiguous? Sorry if I am but this stuff isn't near stone yet. As always, we'll try to make the best, most informed decision we can. Feel free to post or send (swright@jaypeakresort.com) comments and we'll consider them. Hope you're all well and looking forward to getting rolling soon.

Best

steve

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Note to SpinmasterK and other marketing weasels - this is how it's done.

Steve@jpr said:

The existing Bonnie is scheduled to be replaced for next season. Current thinking is that the new lift might be placed on the Power Line trail with the top terminal on or about the top of St. George's-this is very similar to the old alignment of the original Bonnie Chair and would offer access to the JFK pod-insert 'If it aint broke, why'd you fix it' axiom here. To that end, we're installing an anemometer this fall to measure wind at that unload section to compare it to winds we've measured (ranging from Wow to Good Lord) along the Flyer line and the Tram Summit to make sure that if the new lift does go to St. George's then it will not be (as) affected by winds that tend to shut down the Flyer.

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So if the results trend towards "Good Lord", then what is plan B? Running a detatch up the current Bonnie line and foregoing access to the JFK pod?

In order to address wind and chair-swing issues that were present in the original Bonnie line (great trail access aside), we are thinking that the new lift may be a six-pack (potential apologies Dale) as the chairs are considerably heavier (and thus less susceptible to wind), there will be fewer of them (giving folks more time to load) and we will design the uphill capacity to be in harmony with that of the terrain's downhill; capacity that is.

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Smart. Get the benefits of the HSS w/o the associated overcapacity issues by dialing back on the number of chairs. Me likey. It should be noted that this is not the best bang for the buck strategy, so if you move forward with it, Stenger and Co should get mad props.

Current thinking also has us retrofitting the existing Bonnie Quad (we're not very good at throwing things away anyway) and used to replace the Jet Triple. Again uphill capacity would be designed and tweaked to sync with that of the terrain capacity so stay tuned here.

Click to expand...

Why would you go through the expense of moving the quad to Stateside if you aren't going to bump up capacity from the current 1800/hr? Or am I just assuming things? IOW, you could space chairs such that you bump capacity from 1800 to 2000, but not go with the full monty up to 2400.

The Jet Triple could then be re-installed to serve a lower-mountain pod that could include the terrain park (+1 to Riv here) and other pieces of intermediate terrain as well as access back to Tram Base from Stateside.

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Wicked smaht. Props to Riv.

In the 24th century when West Bowl finally does come on line, is it your understanding that those lifts offer the prospect of being able to run in high winds b/c they'll top out below tree line?

Tin Woodsman said:

Note to SpinmasterK and other marketing weasels - this is how it's done.

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+1

That was anything but ambiguous! Thanks for chiming in Steve with the official not set in stone thought process. Glad to hear that you guys are testing the wind this season. I would hate to have a Freezer and a Freeze More double theme on the lifts!

Tin Woodsman said:

Wicked smaht. Props to Riv.

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Nah, props to JPTracker. JPTracker put up the proposed lift relo. I just imaginarily destroyed some glades.

riverc0il said:

+1

That was anything but ambiguous! Thanks for chiming in Steve with the official not set in stone thought process. Glad to hear that you guys are testing the wind this season. I would hate to have a Freezer and a Freeze More double theme on the lifts!

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Tru dat.

Seriously though - so many business and their marketing drones are afraid to admit that they don't quite know how things are going to turn out. It is so damn refreshing to see someone come out and say "Hey, this what we're thinking, but we don;'t have all the data yet, so we'll research it and get back to you when the plan is set in stone."

This stands in stark contrast to the Ready, Fire, Aim/over promise/under deliver approach or the "deflect everything onto the State police" approach which seems to be the rule at K-Mart. uke:

Tin Woodsman said:

So if the results trend towards "Good Lord", then what is plan B? Running a detatch up the current Bonnie line and foregoing access to the JFK pod?
(I'll put my responses in the parentheticals. Sorry if this makes it more difficult to read. Depending on the outcome of the data, Plan B could be altering the profile of the proposed lift at the wind susceptible location, or it could be some sort of wind protection fence structure at a limited/strategic location to help mitigate. Plan B (or is it C?) might also be a Fixed Grip-we need good/better data to analyze options. Stay tuned for the results as we'll probably post them throughout the process. Provided the gauge doesn't blow away.)


Smart. Get the benefits of the HSS w/o the associated overcapacity issues by dialing back on the number of chairs. Me likey. It should be noted that this is not the best bang for the buck strategy, so if you move forward with it, Stenger and Co should get mad props.
(Definitely not the best bang for the buck.)


Why would you go through the expense of moving the quad to Stateside if you aren't going to bump up capacity from the current 1800/hr? Or am I just assuming things? IOW, you could space chairs such that you bump capacity from 1800 to 2000, but not go with the full monty up to 2400.
(The choice of what to put at Stateside is driven by the CCC-comfortable carrying capacity-at Stateside (both current and future). Both the Jet Triple and Bonnie Quad are of an era where major rebuild and refurbishment are to be expected. We are reviewing CCC at Stateside (current and future), and a 2000 PPH fixed quad could work , with a lower PPH triple for the Queen's replacement that will access some sort of terrain pod.)


Wicked smaht. Props to Riv.

In the 24th century when West Bowl finally does come on line, is it your understanding that those lifts offer the prospect of being able to run in high winds b/c they'll top out below tree line?

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(When the moon is in its seventh hour/Jupiter aligns with Mars-Based on observations to date and general orientation versus prevailing winds, the greatest wind in the West Bowl is at the summits. Given our need to maintain separation with The Long Trail, we are planning lift terminals below the ridgeline so we believe the WB will be, if not wind resistant, certainly manageable. We think. Hopefully.)

Steve@jpr said:

(When the moon is in its seventh hour/Jupiter aligns with Mars-Based on observations to date and general orientation versus prevailing winds, the greatest wind in the West Bowl is at the summits.

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Oh shoot, I'm all screwed up. I planned all my ski trips for when Jupiter was in retrograde. :dunce:

Can we get some heated seats on these lifts at Jay? I haven't skied there but anyplace that has a lift nicknamed "freezer" sounds cold!

Steve@jpr said:

Sufficiently ambiguous? Sorry if I am but this stuff isn't near stone yet. As always, we'll try to make the best, most informed decision we can. Feel free to post or send (swright@jaypeakresort.com) comments and we'll consider them. Hope you're all well and looking forward to getting rolling soon.

Best

steve

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Thanks for responding Steve, I am glad that you keep us up to date here, ambiguous or not, and that our discussions and ideas are taken seriously.

Hope to be skiing Thanksgiving weekend.

Steve@jpr said:

In order to address wind and chair-swing issues that were present in the original Bonnie line (great trail access aside), we are thinking that the new lift may be a six-pack (potential apologies Dale) as the chairs are considerably heavier (and thus less susceptible to wind), there will be fewer of them (giving folks more time to load) and we will design the uphill capacity to be in harmony with that of the terrain's downhill; capacity that is.

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It is true that 6-packs are very wind resistant as there is one at Mont Orford in QC (a mountain almost as windy as Jay and there are never any wind holds there), so I guess I could eventually be persuaded.

But I have to say with regards to any intermediate chairlift to access Tramside from Stateside, I would find it a real shame if any of Jay Peak's fantastic glades were destroyed in order to make "crossover" runs or any other type of trail for that matter. I would put a no touch policy on the glades for any type of chairlift installation. They are too sacred! After all, they are what makes Jay, Jay.

Thanks for your opinion Steve! It proves that you are taking input from people who use and are passionate about your product into consideration as you move forward.

Thanks to Sick Bird Rider over on the The Real Jay Peak Snow Report for prompting Steve for a response. From his blog:

Tired of reading people's theories about what lift is going where and whether or not a fixed-grip chair is better than a detachable one, I started scouting around on the Jay Peak web site, to see if maybe, just maybe, I'd missed something. Some blog post, press release (or as they now call it, a Social Media Release) or web site update regarding lift expansion. Nothing. What I did find was an invitation from marketing guy Steve Wright: "And we’re always open to suggestions on how we can improve. Send them to the marketing guy at swright@jaypeakresort.com."

So yesterday, I sent Steve a question regarding the lift rumours, along with links to this blog and the thread on AlpineZone. He responded very promptly and also (coincidentally?) posted a public explanation today on AlpineZone. Good for you, Steve, and it's a good answer. The denizens of AlpineZone seemed to respond favourably. For you non-readers of forums, here is Steve's response:

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speden said:

Can we get some heated seats on these lifts at Jay? I haven't skied there but anyplace that has a lift nicknamed "freezer" sounds cold!

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If you have heated seats, then you can't have air bags! :flame: