The "Sugarbush Thread"

[Slidebrook87]

So is snow made on Upper FIS anymore and is that occurring right now or later this month?

 

[nhskier1969]

Funds are limited? We're talking about the owners of the IKON pass. They bragged about sales being up with these passes IIRC. I'm not buying it. That said, they have been very cheap with Solitude this year.

What about epic and the snowmaking budget they gave Wildcat.
Probably the slowest opening they've had in a very long time.

 

[cdskier]

So is snow made on Upper FIS anymore and is that occurring right now or later this month?

It was listed one day last week I think it was as having snow being made on it on the trail report that day. Not sure if that actually happened or not though. In general, yes, snow is still made on it.

 

[CastlerockMRV]

Interesting article today re: the current winter weather situation. Outlook appears very boom or bust:

The polar vortex is splitting in two, which may lead to weeks of wild winter weather

A dramatic spike in temperatures is occurring at high altitudes above the North Pole, where the air is thin and typically frigid. Known as a sudden stratospheric warming event, experts […]

www.boston.com

 

[thetrailboss]

What about epic and the snowmaking budget they gave Wildcat.
Probably the slowest opening they've had in a very long time.

Well, again, does anyone have anything solid to say it was money as opposed to staffing and/or weather?

 

[thetrailboss]

What about epic and the snowmaking budget they gave Wildcat.
Probably the slowest opening they've had in a very long time.

See the post in the Vail thread.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

given the weather, i'm pretty impressed that they've gotten almost everything off of bravo, valley house, heavens gate, and gate house open. also lots at ellen. I'll be there, likely ellen, Saturday. been holed up since before new years eve.

 

[shadyjay]

Ahhh... snowmaking up on North Lynx. Always had mixed feelings about that pod. It was a difficult area to set up, lots of double/triple hoses, the endless trail, a case or two of an emergency shutdown, and the task of stripping the trail (it was a lot easier in those Ratnik days). Birch has something close to 40 hydrants and the trail is quite wide once you get past the first drop. Sunrise always seemed to be less of a headache and came together quickly. Typically, we'd tackle North Lynx essentially as its own operation for X amount of days. You did not want to spread yourself out too thin (though one year IIRC we did Steins at the same time). North Lynx was always a good time to run a couple towers on Pushover where you could always use snow, such as top of Pushover, top of Slowpoke, or top Easy Rider. You don't want to leave any gun under a liftline unattended for too long, especially when a gun run could take as long as 4 hours (or more). Wind shifts, frozen nukes, busted hoses, etc all come into play quite frequently on that little peak. As a shift leader, you hoped by that point in the season that your crew has gotten it together before you get up there, 'cause you're gonna need everyone on their game. They should be good with a shovel by that point, after dealing with the always-entertaining Downspout.

Given the way the weather's been, and I'm sure there are staffing issues as well, I'd say they're doing pretty good this year. It does seem like North hasn't gotten much snowmaking so far. The warmup didn't help, otherwise Inverness and Brambles would've been done by early Dec for GMVS. I think I did see a mention of FIS getting a night or two of snowmaking in the past week. That's an interesting and fun little trail to make on.

 

[ducky]

There were some guns in place on FIS the other day.

 

[Powder Whore]

Interesting article today re: the current winter weather situation. Outlook appears very boom or bust:

https://www.boston.com/uncategorize...ead-to-weeks-of-wild-winter-weather [/QUOTE]

hopefully it’s a boom! We need a dump so we can put all this banter about snow making to bed.

 

[shadyjay]

Just out of curiosity sake, not necessarily for myself, but for others on here:

I have yet to see any mention of hiking permitted over to Castlerock. Given the fact that most of the mountain is open, including the much lower elevation terrain, is there a reason why hiking has not been permitted via the LT? Could it be because it would put too many people up on Heaven's Gate? I can only imagine what the lift line would look like at the Rock this season (especially on a Saturday), given it being a double and the chairs spaced so far apart?

 

[Smellytele]

Just out of curiosity sake, not necessarily for myself, but for others on here:

I have yet to see any mention of hiking permitted over to Castlerock. Given the fact that most of the mountain is open, including the much lower elevation terrain, is there a reason why hiking has not been permitted via the LT? Could it be because it would put too many people up on Heaven's Gate? I can only imagine what the lift line would look like at the Rock this season (especially on a Saturday), given it being a double and the chairs spaced so far apart?

Probably not much natural over there.

 

[Blurski]

Just out of curiosity sake, not necessarily for myself, but for others on here:

I have yet to see any mention of hiking permitted over to Castlerock. Given the fact that most of the mountain is open, including the much lower elevation terrain, is there a reason why hiking has not been permitted via the LT? Could it be because it would put too many people up on Heaven's Gate? I can only imagine what the lift line would look like at the Rock this season (especially on a Saturday), given it being a double and the chairs spaced so far apart?

CR is my favorite, I’m hoping the mountain decides not to run the CR chair this season & is open for hiking only.

 

[Castlerockrisk]

I would be interested to understand how the new low energy guns output at different temp/ wet bulb temp by a measurement such as cubic feet of snow and the weight of that snow per cubic foot that is produced per gallon of water at various temperatures and if the addition of addition of air or the reduction of water or other atomization can improve the volume to weight. I would think that the ultimate snow would be high volume low weight? Just curious if anyone knows the science and the way to measure performance? We all have preferences but wondering what we are comparing.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

Just out of curiosity sake, not necessarily for myself, but for others on here:

I have yet to see any mention of hiking permitted over to Castlerock. Given the fact that most of the mountain is open, including the much lower elevation terrain, is there a reason why hiking has not been permitted via the LT? Could it be because it would put too many people up on Heaven's Gate? I can only imagine what the lift line would look like at the Rock this season (especially on a Saturday), given it being a double and the chairs spaced so far apart?

assume its thin as fuck and they dont want to have to send their patrol down after people who cant hack it.

 

[cdskier]

assume its thin as fuck and they dont want to have to send their patrol down after people who cant hack it.

That would be my guess as well. As of 1/2*, there was only 27" total snowfall for the season at the base and 39" at the mid-mountain (and that's not accounting for what was washed away in the rain and warmth). That's not much at lower elevations.

*I used 1/2 as the date as that's the last day I have an e-mailed snow report for some reason and only the e-mail version includes the base and mid-mountain totals. The website only shows the summit total. Does anyone else subscribe to the daily snow report and did anyone else stop receiving it suddenly a few days ago or is it just me? I checked my mailing list preferences and "Daily Snow Report" is still checked. And I did receive one of the "News" type e-mails this afternoon from Sugarbush.

 

[shadyjay]

I would be interested to understand how the new low energy guns output at different temp/ wet bulb temp by a measurement such as cubic feet of snow and the weight of that snow per cubic foot that is produced per gallon of water at various temperatures and if the addition of addition of air or the reduction of water or other atomization can improve the volume to weight. I would think that the ultimate snow would be high volume low weight? Just curious if anyone knows the science and the way to measure performance? We all have preferences but wondering what we are comparing.

For those just joining us, and for a quick refresher:

The "new" guns are designed to operate at a specific water pressure and use a miniscule amount of air compared to the older Ratnik guns. They are considered "fixed flow". The Ratniks you could adjust the water depending on the temperature... in marginal temps, you could turn the water way down and make snow, but the downside was they took up more air. Way more air. The colder it gets, the more water can be applied and thus less air is used. Prior to the mtn getting the "low e" guns, early season, we may have gotten 5, 10, 15 guns online. That doesn't get you very far down Jester or Downspout. At the same time, we'd have all 3 compressors running (and in earlier years, they'd rent compressors) in order to produce the air needed for that small amount of guns. As the temps got colder, air could be "gotten back" by wetting up the existing running guns.

Now fast forward to the past 5-8 years... the new guns can now enable us to get all of Jester and a god portion of Downspout going, if not all of Downspout, on 1 compressor. That is a considerable amount of cost (power) savings, and that is significant especially in these times. The new guns are more elaborate, with moving parts, gauges, handles, etc, that are all suspeptible to the cold. You can't just load 50 of them in the truck and toss them out like you could the Rats. They also are considerably heavy, top heavy, and require more babysitting, especially if pointed the wrong way. A ratnik tripod could be yanked out of a snowbank fairly easy, whereas a Snow Logic gun on a sled needs to be cleared of snow before you can move it, otherwise you're breaking the sled and rendering the gun useless. The less air used also meant the guns have less of a throw, so the snow tends to end up closer to the sled, or on the sled itself, vs a Ratnik that could throw the snow 5-10' away.

Having worked with both, there are pros and cons to each. The work got a lot more intense when the logics came out. It required more manpower, more gun runs, more maintenance. Some of the "art" of snowmaking was lost.... you no longer had to walk into the plume and check snow quality and then have your hydrant guy adjust the water up or down. Finding that perfect mix of air and water was something I enjoyed... until you walked into a plume with the water cranked way up.... you were soaked for the rest of the run.... so you just worked extra hard to warm up (or have the rookie go into the plume on the next gun ;-) ).

Yes, the logics do make a heavier snow consistency, especially in the high teens->20s range. We did try to wait for a trail to "cure" before grooming it, so that mitigated the wet snow factor. For snowmaking snow, you want a degree of heavier snow, since that's what makes it last through the season and able to take the beating of groomers nightly. What does help the snow consistency with logics is the towers, which give the snow more "hangtime" before landing. Logic (and HKD) towers do very well.

During yearly orientation, we were given a manual to study and a couple hours of orientation was dedicated to talking about "snow science". If you're interested in those details, you can apply in the fall. I just wanted to touch on a few basics and a little insight. This topic seems to come up every year. And even though I'm out of the game now (maybe not forever... who knows what the future holds), I will continue to defend my "brothers in black" in the ongoing battle between man and mother nature, so that all can enjoy the winter season. I enjoy talking about it and some nights, I really do miss it... not just snowmaking, but the mountain in general.

 

[ducky]

Hiking to CR not open yet. I ducked onto Paradise woods but despite pretty good coverage, found the bottom several times. Minor edge damage. Still was fun to make some turns.

 

[WinS]

For those just joining us, and for a quick refresher:

The "new" guns are designed to operate at a specific water pressure and use a miniscule amount of air compared to the older Ratnik guns. They are considered "fixed flow". The Ratniks you could adjust the water depending on the temperature... in marginal temps, you could turn the water way down and make snow, but the downside was they took up more air. Way more air. The colder it gets, the more water can be applied and thus less air is used. Prior to the mtn getting the "low e" guns, early season, we may have gotten 5, 10, 15 guns online. That doesn't get you very far down Jester or Downspout. At the same time, we'd have all 3 compressors running (and in earlier years, they'd rent compressors) in order to produce the air needed for that small amount of guns. As the temps got colder, air could be "gotten back" by wetting up the existing running guns.

Now fast forward to the past 5-8 years... the new guns can now enable us to get all of Jester and a god portion of Downspout going, if not all of Downspout, on 1 compressor. That is a considerable amount of cost (power) savings, and that is significant especially in these times. The new guns are more elaborate, with moving parts, gauges, handles, etc, that are all suspeptible to the cold. You can't just load 50 of them in the truck and toss them out like you could the Rats. They also are considerably heavy, top heavy, and require more babysitting, especially if pointed the wrong way. A ratnik tripod could be yanked out of a snowbank fairly easy, whereas a Snow Logic gun on a sled needs to be cleared of snow before you can move it, otherwise you're breaking the sled and rendering the gun useless. The less air used also meant the guns have less of a throw, so the snow tends to end up closer to the sled, or on the sled itself, vs a Ratnik that could throw the snow 5-10' away.

Having worked with both, there are pros and cons to each. The work got a lot more intense when the logics came out. It required more manpower, more gun runs, more maintenance. Some of the "art" of snowmaking was lost.... you no longer had to walk into the plume and check snow quality and then have your hydrant guy adjust the water up or down. Finding that perfect mix of air and water was something I enjoyed... until you walked into a plume with the water cranked way up.... you were soaked for the rest of the run.... so you just worked extra hard to warm up (or have the rookie go into the plume on the next gun ;-) ).

Yes, the logics do make a heavier snow consistency, especially in the high teens->20s range. We did try to wait for a trail to "cure" before grooming it, so that mitigated the wet snow factor. For snowmaking snow, you want a degree of heavier snow, since that's what makes it last through the season and able to take the beating of groomers nightly. What does help the snow consistency with logics is the towers, which give the snow more "hangtime" before landing. Logic (and HKD) towers do very well.

During yearly orientation, we were given a manual to study and a couple hours of orientation was dedicated to talking about "snow science". If you're interested in those details, you can apply in the fall. I just wanted to touch on a few basics and a little insight. This topic seems to come up every year. And even though I'm out of the game now (maybe not forever... who knows what the future holds), I will continue to defend my "brothers in black" in the ongoing battle between man and mother nature, so that all can enjoy the winter season. I enjoy talking about it and some nights, I really do miss it... not just snowmaking, but the mountain in general.

Shady Jay, it is great you are still engaging as you were one of our best and hardest working shift leaders and then were one of our lift leaders after snowmaking. I would add that before the low energy guns Sugarbush was ”air short”. We had three 6,000 CFM compressors at LP and two at ME. In early season all had to run and supplemental diesel compressors were brought it. Now it is rare when more than one runs on either side before the water is maxed out. The future the plan will be to increase the amount of water that can be brought up the mountain by increasing pipe diameter and some additional pump. Before COVID hit the initial planning for this was beginning. This is a multi-year and costly initiative. An unlimited amount of water can be withdrawn from the Mad River so long as the flow exceeds the February Mean Level flow. Thus, a plan for an additional snowmaking pond higher on the mountain. The water source at ME is much more limited.

FIS did run briefly but there were some valve leaks which needed repairing. I presume they will return there, but one wants to take advantage of temperatures lower when they are available.

 

[Castlerockrisk]

Shady thanks for that. Compressors are dirty and energy hogs and since we all love the outdoors the reduction of energy use is important for all of us. I make my home in the MRV and after 35 plus season passes I fully respect the efforts of the team that keeps the mountain going. Your description about the sleds and weights of the guns was probably more enlightening than the physics of the snow making and I now better understand the mounding and the snow water density that requires curing. I have noticed that the groomers are taking extra efforts this year to grind out the cookies- and the slopes are noticeably more skiable after a couple of nights grooming. The new snow is also helping out tremondously and the skiing is getting better daily.

The water bars and runouts on CR are unsafe for most at this time.