VAIL SUCKS

[joshua segal]

I agree with everyone that $300 day tickets are ridiculous, but here's the thing. Weekends at Stowe feature long liftlines. Now that we are past COVID restrictions, reservations aren't necessary, and the place is jam-packed with season ticket holders.

If you want a VT weekend experience, haven't got a season pass, and don't have the $$$ for Stowe, it's not far to Smugglers' and Pico is still not that crowded or pricy.

Stowe attracts a crowd that routinely tips an instructor $50 or more on a private lesson. To these people $300 is like a tenth of that to you and me.

 

[thetrailboss]

I agree with everyone that $300 day tickets are ridiculous, but here's the thing. Weekends at Stowe feature long liftlines. Now that we are past COVID restrictions, reservations aren't necessary, and the place is jam-packed with season ticket holders.

If you want a VT weekend experience, haven't got a season pass, and don't have the $$$ for Stowe, it's not far to Smugglers' and Pico is still not that crowded or pricy.

Stowe attracts a crowd that routinely tips an instructor $50 or more on a private lesson. To these people $300 is like a tenth of that to you and me.

True. Add Burke, Bolton, Jay, MRG, and others.

You’re missing the bigger point though. Vail doesn’t want to sell day tickets.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

I agree with everyone that $300 day tickets are ridiculous, but here's the thing. Weekends at Stowe feature long liftlines. Now that we are past COVID restrictions, reservations aren't necessary, and the place is jam-packed with season ticket holders.

If you want a VT weekend experience, haven't got a season pass, and don't have the $$$ for Stowe, it's not far to Smugglers' and Pico is still not that crowded or pricy.

Stowe attracts a crowd that routinely tips an instructor $50 or more on a private lesson. To these people $300 is like a tenth of that to you and me.

i think thats a pretty gross oversimplification of the financials of a stowe skier. especially now that its an epic pass resort that costs like 500 for unlimited access. maybe when it was a $2000 season pass that was sort of the situation, but its definitely not that now.

as tb said, the point is vail wants to steer everyone who will ever visit any of their properties to a pre-paid pass product, hence pricing day-of tickets outrageously. they want to realize their main chunk of revenue every season before a single flake falls.

 

[BenedictGomez]

As has been discussed that's all great but how do you get new people into the sport? They clearly don't care and those in charge, similar to mr big smile katz, will have cashed out long before the question has to be asked.

You don't. That's been my #1 concern for a while now. And good luck trying to model this, I think it will take years before the problem is evident.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I doubt any young person would just jump in a car and drive hours to a resort they no nothing about to try out skiing.

I worked at Stowe Ski School for years. The above happened probably a hundred times every weekend all season long, just on my side of the mountain alone.

 

[BenedictGomez]

And I also hate to say this, but if you're a first timer, you don't need to go to a big resort and spend money on high prices at those places anyway. There's plenty of smaller independent "feeder" hills still out there with deals that are great ways to enter the sport.

While this is clearly true, it's not realistic to how many (if not most) complete novices make their "let's try a ski vacation!" planning decisions.

 

[BenedictGomez]

its an epic pass resort that costs like 500 for unlimited access. maybe when it was a $2000 season pass that was sort of the situation, but its definitely not that now.

I wonder how this shakes out for the formerly, "cachet" properties like Deer Valley & Stowe long-term.

It makes me wonder if they're killing some of their brand equity. For both it's probably too new to know for sure, but anecdotally it sounds like some Deer Valley peeps aren't pleased with the new crowding & rif-raf. lol

 

[cdskier]

I wonder how this shakes out for the formerly, "cachet" properties like Deer Valley & Stowe long-term.

It makes me wonder if they're killing some of their brand equity. For both it's probably too new to know for sure, but anecdotally it sounds like some Deer Valley peeps aren't pleased with the new crowding & rif-raf. lol

Deer Valley is owned by Alterra, not Vail. And even on the Ikon Full pass you only get 7 days at Deer Valley, so Alterra is at least trying to keep that a bit more exclusive (although I'm sure the DV people are complaining that Ikon gives any access at all).

 

[BenedictGomez]

Deer Valley is owned by Alterra, not Vail. And even on the Ikon Full pass you only get 7 days at Deer Valley, so Alterra is at least trying to keep that a bit more exclusive (although I'm sure the DV people are complaining that Ikon gives any access at all).

It's the same issue though. Also, Deer Valley is within an hour'ish drive of a metro population of something like > 1M people, Stowe isnt. That's a rather large, "only 7 days" population.

 

[mbedle]

I worked at Stowe Ski School for years. The above happened probably a hundred times every weekend all season long, just on my side of the mountain alone.

I can tell you that over the pass 5 or 6 years this does not happen 100s of times every weekend. Their ski school is a shell of what it use to be, especially on the adult side.

Edit - I will give you that there is a certain demographic that does this and they typically are flying to Stowe and overpriced tickets, rentals and lessons means nothing to them.

 

[mbedle]

You don't. That's been my #1 concern for a while now. And good luck trying to model this, I think it will take years before the problem is evident.

How you do it is you get young adults to your resorts with cheap season passes, those young adults marry and have children that also turn into skiers. Those skiing kids ask their parents if a friend can come along on the yearly ski vacation and they turn into skiers. etc, etc, etc. Exposure at the young kid/adult stage is key to growing the business.

 

[mbedle]

I wonder how this shakes out for the formerly, "cachet" properties like Deer Valley & Stowe long-term.

It makes me wonder if they're killing some of their brand equity. For both it's probably too new to know for sure, but anecdotally it sounds like some Deer Valley peeps aren't pleased with the new crowding & rif-raf. lol

It absolutely is killing the Stowe brand. The mix of clientele at Stowe is VERY different from the clientele that existed 5 years ago. To be honest, everything at Stowe is different since Vail bought the ski operations. I still go because my friends all live there, but its sad to see what it has become. Many days of one or two runs & done or off to the side country, over the past 5 years.

 

[abc]

It absolutely is killing the Stowe brand.

The brand!

Vail took some top tier mountains of their respective region and turn them into also-fans. Stowe, Hunter...

They also took some solid mid-tire mountains and drove it into the gutter: Wildcat.

They did glamorized some also-rans and some people love Vail for it.. Think Okemo

That’s THE BRAND

 

[thetrailboss]

You don't. That's been my #1 concern for a while now. And good luck trying to model this, I think it will take years before the problem is evident.

Exactly. It's all about the here and now. Seems like they are saying fuck the future because SKIING AND SNOWBOARDING WON'T EXIST due to climate change. Cash in now!

 

[BenedictGomez]

Exactly. It's all about the here and now. Seems like they are saying fuck the future because SKIING AND SNOWBOARDING WON'T EXIST due to climate change. Cash in now!

Vail is very political for sure (sometimes embarrassingly & tediously), but I dont think it's about Climate Change. Most of the staunchest pushers of Climate Change & other political messages dont really believe it anyway, they just need to believe enough of their clientele does.

What I think Vail's behaviour is about is simply their being a publicly traded company which will always be under the gun each-and-every quarter to both increase profitability and profit margins. That sort of strict numerical mandate isnt necessary in-line (and probably isnt) with your best ski experience.

 

[2Planker]

Since there is no income tax in NH, how can this be relevant?

NH is 2nd home for many of us. Will be primary home in a couple years.

 

[thetrailboss]

What I think Vail's behaviour is about is simply their being a publicly traded company which will always be under the gun each-and-every quarter to both increase profitability and profit margins. That sort of strict numerical mandate isnt necessary in-line (and probably isnt) with your best ski experience.

Absolutely true.

 

[thetrailboss]

It absolutely is killing the Stowe brand. The mix of clientele at Stowe is VERY different from the clientele that existed 5 years ago. To be honest, everything at Stowe is different since Vail bought the ski operations. I still go because my friends all live there, but its sad to see what it has become. Many days of one or two runs & done or off to the side country, over the past 5 years.

What are you talking about? The experience is EPIC!

 

[thetrailboss]

How you do it is you get young adults to your resorts with cheap season passes, those young adults marry and have children that also turn into skiers. Those skiing kids ask their parents if a friend can come along on the yearly ski vacation and they turn into skiers. etc, etc, etc. Exposure at the young kid/adult stage is key to growing the business.

As I said, the current mindset of the industry, for many reasons, is basically fuck the future and cash in NOW!

Goodbye cheap learn to ski promos and cheap ski lessons for kids. The industry thinks that the market has spoken: we want discount season passes AT ALL costs. Ski school is meant to cover the losses/costs of discount season passes. Good for the established skier and rider, bad for families, bad for the 3-5 day crowd, bad for never-evers.

But hey, they think that the market WANTS cheap season passes and the industry has admittedly created that beast. Don't believe me?

How Multi-Resort Season Passes Have Affected Single Lift Ticket Sales - SnowBrains

Season Pass Sales According to the NSAA, the 2021-22 ski season saw a significant uptick in season passes sold. It wasn’t just the two big players of Epic and Ikon either. Ski areas from big to small from all over the country saw an increase. Additionally, other major players have emerged in the...

snowbrains.com

 

[JoeB-Z]

It's so far in the past as to be meaningless but Killington was a mill generating new skiers in the 1960's. Five days of lessons with equipment brought me from never ever to intermediate at age 8. Snowshed was packed with these programs all week. And it couldn't have been much money as my dad was cheap as hell. A totally different interest (and situation) in terms of developing skiers. I knew lower middle class kids who somehow learned how to ski with little parental support of any sort as teenagers. Dropped my Epic pass this year. It's not my sort of skiing experience.